Autor Wątek: On Lem's religious background  (Przeczytany 21252 razy)

Unitarius

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On Lem's religious background
« dnia: Marzec 31, 2006, 01:41:28 pm »
OK. We all know, because of reading Lem that he was a non believer of jewish ancestry.

But I found out a suprising info on:

http://www.adherents.com/people/pl/Stanislaw_Lem.html

and

http://www.celebatheists.com/mediawiki-1.5.7/index.php?title=Stanislaw_Lem

They state not only that Lem was Catholic, but that Leam was supposed to have been close friends with Karol Wojtyla.

I can´t believe none of this nonsense.

Do you know more worthy sources to correct this wrong info? Thank You!

Greetings from Mexico City

Terminus

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Re: On Lem's religious background
« Odpowiedź #1 dnia: Marzec 31, 2006, 03:50:42 pm »
They do not state that Lem was a catholic, but that he was raised as a catholic. That's a difference. Lem later baceme an atheist/agnostic.

As for the frendship with Karol Wojtyla, I haven't heard anything about it.

Pekka

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Re: On Lem's religious background
« Odpowiedź #2 dnia: Marzec 31, 2006, 10:08:49 pm »
 And Washington Post writes:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/27/AR200603 2701571.html

During World War II, his secular Jewish family struggled to stay together and survive. The family forged identification papers to avoid internment in the Jewish ghetto.

I understan secular as "non-religious". Shouldn´t it read "converted" if the family was Catholic?

Pekka  :)

Kagan

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Re: On Lem's religious background
« Odpowiedź #3 dnia: Maj 04, 2006, 04:32:32 pm »
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They do not state that Lem was a catholic, but that he was raised as a catholic. That's a difference. Lem later baceme an atheist/agnostic.

As for the frendship with Karol Wojtyla, I haven't heard anything about it.


My understanding is that:
1. Lem was raised as eiter non-religious person or only nominally Roman-Catholic. My parents were also non-religious, but in a pre-war Poland they were formally classified as "Roman Catholics" as they were neither Jewish, nor Protestant and also not Orthodox Christians, and officially there was no "Atheist" or "Agnostic" or "Non-religious" category.
2. I do not think if eiter Wojtyla would appreciate Lem's writings or vice versa. I can imagine a friendship between Lem and Cardinal Wyszynski, a  former Head of Catholic Church in Poland, as well as one of the gretest Polish statemen (The "Millenium Cardinal"), but not between Lem and Wojtyla... Wojtyla was a great showman and somehow clever politician, but not especially intellectual, you know...

maziek

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Re: On Lem's religious background
« Odpowiedź #4 dnia: Maj 05, 2006, 10:49:47 pm »
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They state not only that Lem was Catholic, but that Leam was supposed to have been close friends with Karol Wojtyla
hi Mexico! ;D. Regardless of being (or not) catholic, he had a great and open mind, and had had friends among best polish scientists. The fact is, that Wojtyła (another open-mind) used to invite many of them (being bishop in Cracov) many times for the discussions about what is the nature of universe (i.e. the beginning), about biology (i.e. evolution) etc. It is very possible that Lem was one of his quests. I don' t think they ever talked about religion.  Because of his knowledge about science Wojtyła - being pope - said for the first time "sorry" for Galileo, Bruno, and admitted that Darwin theory of evolution is something more important than only theory - I think. Another fact is, that both of them (Wojtyla and Lem) started together at the same time (about 1946 or 47) cooperation with "Tygodnik Powszechny" - weekly catholic magazine which was something against comunism, so it would be strange, if they hadn't met together. So: I don't know, if they were friends, but it is for sure that they had many possibilities to meet, and if they used to discuss - no religion was the topic
Cytuj
I understan secular as "non-religious". Shouldn´t it read "converted" if the family was Catholic?
I think it is very difficult to understand, how it was. Let us think they were Judes, and just hadn't practised it since years or decades. For nazi the only important fact was, that they were Judes i.e. had Jevish ancestors - so they were to die. Let us think they were catolics since decades - but they had Jevish ancestors, so they were to die... Even nazi, if it turned out, that they had any Jewish ancestors, were to die. To get proper papers was the only way to survive. In those conditions one will declare he is an UFO - to stay alive...

Kagan

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Re: On Lem's religious background
« Odpowiedź #5 dnia: Maj 06, 2006, 09:53:42 am »
maziek: hi Mexico! ;D. Regardless of being (or not) catholic, he had a great and open mind, and had had friends among best polish (sic) scientists. The fact is, that Wojtyła (another open-mind) SIC used to invite many of them (being bishop in Cracov) many times for the discussions about what is the nature of universe (i.e. the beginning), about biology (i.e. evolution) etc. It is very possible that Lem was one of his quests. I don' t think they ever talked about religion.  Because of his knowledge SIC about science Wojtyła - being pope - said for the first time "sorry" for Galileo, Bruno, and admitted that Darwin theory of evolution is something more important than only theory - I think. Another fact is, that both of them (Wojtyla and Lem) started together at the same time (about 1946 or 47) cooperation with "Tygodnik Powszechny" - weekly catholic magazine which was something SIC against comunism, so it would be strange, if they hadn't met together. So: I don't know, if they were friends, but it is for sure that they had many possibilities to meet, and if they used to discuss - no religion was the topic
- How can you talk to a priest and avoid religion? Show me any records proving any meeting between Wojtyla and Lem!

I think it is very difficult to understand, how it was. Let us think they were Judes  SIC, and just hadn't practised it since years or decades. For nazi SIC the only important fact was, that they were Judes SIC i.e. had Jevish SIC ancestors - so they were to die. Let us think they were catolics SIC since decades - but they had Jevish SIC ancestors, so they were to die... Even nazi SIC, if it turned out, that they had any Jewish ancestors, were to die. To get proper papers was the only way to survive. In those conditions one will declare he is an UFO - to stay alive...
- Hitler aslo had a part-Jewish ancestry. It is well explained in John Toland's book. So Nazi law was designed such a way, that Fuehrer coukld not be officially declared as a Jew. Mother of Heydrich (Nazi ruler of occupied Bohemia and Moravia, that one assasinated by the Czech Resistance) was 100% Jewish, as  his mother was a Jewess named Sarah. So one day the Nazis changed a description on her grave from "Sarah Heydrich" to "S. Heydrich"... ;)

maziek

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Re: On Lem's religious background
« Odpowiedź #6 dnia: Maj 06, 2006, 10:37:54 am »
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SIC SIC SIC SIC SIC SIC SIC SIC
If You quote me, You must NOT change my words. If You are not able to learn how to quote, don't quote me.

Kagan

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Re: On Lem's religious background
« Odpowiedź #7 dnia: Maj 06, 2006, 10:42:49 am »
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If You quote me, You must NOT change my words. If You are not able to learn how to quote, don't quote me.


SIC has a special meaning in editing texts. It attracts readers' attention to obvious mistakes... I can quote you any way I wish. It is called democracy and personal freedom...

tataturek

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Lem was Khazar not Jew!
« Odpowiedź #8 dnia: Maj 07, 2006, 01:55:10 pm »
I think that Lem was Khazar not an ethnic Jew. You know about Khazaria - Turkish tribes that accepted Judaism as state religion. Later migrated to todays Poland. See Arthur Koestler THE THIRTEENTH TRİBE.
Cytuj
OK. We all know, because of reading Lem that he was a non believer of jewish ancestry.

But I found out a suprising info on:

http://www.adherents.com/people/pl/Stanislaw_Lem.html

and

http://www.celebatheists.com/mediawiki-1.5.7/index.php?title=Stanislaw_Lem

They state not only that Lem was Catholic, but that Leam was supposed to have been close friends with Karol Wojtyla.

I can´t believe none of this nonsense.

Do you know more worthy sources to correct this wrong info? Thank You!

Greetings from Mexico City

« Ostatnia zmiana: Maj 07, 2006, 01:56:07 pm wysłana przez tataturek »

Pekka

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Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
« Odpowiedź #9 dnia: Maj 09, 2006, 11:18:29 pm »
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I think that Lem was Khazar not an ethnic Jew. You know about Khazaria - Turkish tribes that accepted Judaism as state religion. Later migrated to todays Poland. See Arthur Koestler THE THIRTEENTH TRİBE.


Koestler´s therories about the khazars being the predecessors of European jews are not generally accepted.

There are indeed wild theories...in Korea children are taught at school that Finns and Koreans are sister tribes, both from the Ural region, Finns went west and Koreans east ! this is not a joke!

So I suppose the facts we know are:

1. SL was unreligious.
2. Ethnically he has both Polish and Jewish ancestors.

Am I correct in saying that SL always presented himself as a Polish writer? If so, he himself found himself to be Polish and probably it is correct to present him as a Polish author ?

Pekka 8)

Metalist

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Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
« Odpowiedź #10 dnia: Maj 10, 2006, 04:52:55 am »
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Koestler´s therories about the khazars being the predecessors of European jews are not generally accepted.

There are indeed wild theories...in Korea children are taught at school that Finns and Koreans are sister tribes, both from the Ural region, Finns went west and Koreans east ! this is not a joke!

So I suppose the facts we know are:

1. SL was unreligious.
2. Ethnically he has both Polish and Jewish ancestors.

Am I correct in saying that SL always presented himself as a Polish writer? If so, he himself found himself to be Polish and probably it is correct to present him as a Polish author ?

Pekka 8)

Lem was always known as a Polish Science fiction writer and philosopher. He never really put any epathis on his religious background, since he was openly athiest. I think that presenting him as a Polish writer is correct. That's how I always referred to him :)

Kagan

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Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
« Odpowiedź #11 dnia: Maj 10, 2006, 10:14:18 am »
Problem with Lem was that he was an opportunist. Quite cleverly he found that it was not a good idea to be Jew in Nazi-ocupied Poland, so he made himself a Pole. But for American market he stressed his Jewish (Really Askhenazi or Khazar) roots, and regreted that he "knew so liittle about Jewish culture". When communists were in power in Poland, he was their "fellow travelle", until he found that communism was doomed. But he abandoned communism rougly when many other people found that it was doomed. I have much lower intelligence than Lem, and arrived to the same conlusion independently and rougly the same time as Lem... So let me conclude that Lem was a writer of Jewish origin, writing mostly in Polish (but also in German), enthusiastic follower of communism during Stalinism years in Poland, later critic of communism, but only when it was obvious that such a system was doomed. And note that I use "communism" in very narrow meaning ("political system of USSR and its satellites").

Cytuj
Lem was always known as a Polish Science fiction writer and philosopher. He never really put any epathis on his religious background, since he was openly athiest. I think that presenting him as a Polish writer is correct. That's how I always referred to him :)


Metalist

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Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
« Odpowiedź #12 dnia: Maj 11, 2006, 08:33:00 am »
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Problem with Lem was that he was an opportunist. Quite cleverly he found that it was not a good idea to be Jew in Nazi-ocupied Poland, so he made himself a Pole.


So was he from another country other then Poland before he "made himself a Pole"?  :o

Pekka

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Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
« Odpowiedź #13 dnia: Maj 11, 2006, 09:30:51 am »
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So was he from another country other then Poland before he "made himself a Pole"?  :o


Kagan seems to be applying a version of Nürnberg racial code here. He wants to keep the Polish blood pure.

>:(

Pekka

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Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
« Odpowiedź #14 dnia: Maj 11, 2006, 09:32:32 am »
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But for American market he stressed his Jewish (Really Askhenazi or Khazar) roots, and regreted that he "knew so liittle about Jewish culture".



Proof, please. 8)