Autor Wątek: On Lem's religious background  (Przeczytany 20970 razy)

Kagan

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Re: On Lem's religious background
« Odpowiedź #30 dnia: Maj 12, 2006, 08:52:54 am »
If Koestler was not right, then tell me why he and his wife were assasinated in their London flat by the Israeli Secret Service (Mosad, Shin Bet or who know wich Israeli secret agency) shortly after publishing THE 13TH TRIBE?

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Wikipedia states:  There they likely merged with local Jews and ensuing waves of Jewish immigration from Germany and Western Europe. They most likely did not constitute the dominant group within Eastern European Jewry, as Arthur Koestler maintained (see below). Polish legends speak of Jews being present in Poland before the establishment of the Polish monarchy. Polish coins from the 12th and 13th centuries sometimes bore Slavic inscriptions written in the Hebrew alphabet [3] [4] though connecting these coins to Khazar influence is purely a matter of speculation.

and about Koestlers theories:

Khazar ancestry of Ashkenazim
Arthur Koestler
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Arthur Koestler

Some historians, and most famously the non-historian novelist Arthur Koestler (in The Thirteenth Tribe), have proposed that Jewish Khazars are the ancestors of most or all Ashkenazi (Eastern European) Jews, but the idea is controversial and is not supported by mainstream researchers. Recent genetic studies appear to demonstrate that Middle Eastern elements dominate the Ashkenazi male line (see, e.g., Y-chromosomal Aaron), but that the female line appears to have a substantially different history. Some have argued this suggests Middle Eastern men marrying into local European communities [5]meaning that Ashkenazim are either not related to Jewish Khazars or that Jewish Khazars represent only a small element of Ashkenazi ancestry rather than the dominant element suggested by Koestler. The theory for the most part is considered to have been widely discredited. Some historians and scientists recognize the need to specifically test the Khazar theory, rather than generalizing based on studies of other non-Khazar populations.[6]

Another criticism that has been levelled against Koestler's work is that he largely appropriated his history from such sources as D.M. Dunlop, sometimes without proper attribution. Moreover, it has been pointed out that his more speculative second half (discussing his theories about Ashkenazi descent) is largely unsupported; to the extent that Koestler referred to place-names and documentary evidence his analysis has been described as a mixture of flawed etymologies and misinterpreted primary sources.

Other critics of the Khazar-Ashkenazi theory have stated that the prime motive for even the small degree of acceptance of these ideas is because they have become political and anti-Zionist in nature. The Khazar theory has been adopted by many anti-Zionists, especially in the Arab world; such proponents of the theory argue that if Ashkenazi Jews are primarily Khazar in origin, then they would be outside the scope of God's promise of Canaan to Israelites as recorded in the Bible. This ignores, of course, the fact that the Biblical promise explicitly includes converts, and the fact that over half of Israeli Jews are not Ashkenazi. Some have countered that such charges of a political motive are not relevant to the core of the argument; in any event, Koestler himself was emphatically pro-Zionist based upon secular considerations.

The Khazar claim has also served as a catalyst for state antisemitism in the Soviet Union and a justification for conquest by Russian nationalists. [7]

Others have claimed Khazar origins for such groups as the Karaim, Krymchaks, Mountain Jews, and Gruzim. There is little evidence to support any of these theories, although it is possible that some Khazar descendants found their way into these communities. Non-Jewish groups who claim at least partial descent from the Khazars include the Kumyks and Crimean Tatars; as with the above-mentioned Jewish groups, these claims are subject to a great deal of controversy and debate.

 8)


Kagan

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Re: On Lem's religious background
« Odpowiedź #31 dnia: Maj 12, 2006, 08:55:04 am »
Nice joke, but Gierek was a communist, not socialist...

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No, many people will be happy and You too ;D

There's an old joke. Brezniew (everybody knows), Ford (US president) and Gierek (Polish first secretary of socialistic party) are in the plane over US. Ford takes 10 bucks and throws them out of th plane - 10 people will be happy. Than, the plane is over USSR, Brezniew takes 100 rubles, throws them and says: a hundred people will be happy! At last plane is over Poland, but poor Gierek hasn't got a damn zloty (polish money). So only whispers: "I throw out you both, and few billion people will be happy!"


Kagan

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Re: On Lem's religious background
« Odpowiedź #32 dnia: Maj 12, 2006, 08:56:21 am »
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And if you have to throw any past US presidents out of a plane around that time in history, you should pick Carter.  8)


Carter? The only honest US president since Lincoln? My favourite is obviously Dubya...

wetal

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Re: On Lem's religious background
« Odpowiedź #33 dnia: Maj 13, 2006, 11:56:44 am »
Read Star Diaries where Tchiy talks with a priest who sticked a half of his star map with paper where the civilizations developed and religion disappeared.
 Know that strong people do not believe in god they believe in themselves,and in other people and their wit.
 Lem despised the religion,he realized that it is a step back.
 Catholic church is such an organization which used to burn all the unfitting people.The same could be said about former communist`s party .

Kagan

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Re: On Lem's religious background
« Odpowiedź #34 dnia: Maj 13, 2006, 12:44:52 pm »
Of course. But do you know that English language translation of this journey was censored in the West? Probably by the religious censors...
It was the Twenty-second Voyage (1954) in which Tichy learns from the Andrygonian pupils that life on Earth is impossible and  later meets father Lacymon who tells him about various problems encountered by the Christian (Roman-Catholic) missionaries on the alien worlds. Few last pages of "The Twenty-second Voyage" have been omitted in the English translation, most likely because of their controversial, anti-clerical and anti-American subject, which could offend some American readers (for example those in the so-called `Bible Belt' in the Southern USA, where Darwin's theory of evolution is still fiercely fought by the creationists). See also Liro's Stanislaw Lem in Translation in The Polish Review vol. XXXVII No. 1 of 1992 pp. 63-65.
And remeber, that the Prostestant Church was not better. Kalvin made Geneva a real hell. And remember witch hunts in the US. There was a quite good movie on this subject...
Cheers! :)
Kagan, King of Khazars ;)
Cytuj
Read Star Diaries where Tchiy talks with a priest who sticked a half of his star map with paper where the civilizations developed and religion disappeared.
  Know that strong people do not believe in god they believe in themselves,and in other people and their wit.
  Lem despised the religion,he realized that it is a step back.
  Catholic church is such an organization which used to burn all the unfitting people.The same could be said about former communist`s party .


Pekka

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Re: On Lem's religious background
« Odpowiedź #35 dnia: Maj 13, 2006, 10:05:25 pm »
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If Koestler was not right, then tell me why he and his wife were assasinated in their London flat by the Israeli Secret Service (Mosad, Shin Bet or who know wich Israeli secret agency) shortly after publishing THE 13TH TRIBE?




I know that questions were raised because his wife also committed suicide, but was not ill.
But what would be the logic behind such an act? Revenge?

???

Kagan

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Re: On Lem's religious background
« Odpowiedź #36 dnia: Maj 14, 2006, 01:05:36 pm »
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I know that questions were raised because his wife also committed suicide, but was not ill.
But what would be the logic behind such an act? Revenge?

 ???


Human beings are not logical or rational creatures. Only robots are logical and rational... As in In the "Eleventh Voyage" (1961) where Tichy was sent to investigate events on a planet supposed to be inhabited by rebellious and hostile to the mankind robots, to eventually find "that only man can be a bastard";
And secret services are very good in making a murder look like a suicide... Remeber that latest case of a British scientist?

Pekka

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Re: On Lem's religious background
« Odpowiedź #37 dnia: Maj 14, 2006, 03:14:15 pm »
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Human beings are not logical or rational creatures. Only robots are logical and rational... As in In the "Eleventh Voyage" (1961) where Tichy was sent to investigate events on a planet supposed to be inhabited by rebellious and hostile to the mankind robots, to eventually find "that only man can be a bastard";
And secret services are very good in making a murder look like a suicide... Remeber that latest case of a British scientist?


I agree. Freude said that " man is not the master in his own house" meaning exactly this. I still belive a sectret service would assassin somebody only for a rational reason. Tell me about the British scientist, fi we both a till around
;D

Kagan

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Re: On Lem's religious background
« Odpowiedź #38 dnia: Maj 15, 2006, 12:23:40 pm »
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I agree. Freude said that " man is not the master in his own house" meaning exactly this. I still belive a sectret service would assassin somebody only for a rational reason. Tell me about the British scientist, fi we both a till around
 ;D


I don't have time to search for this, but it was a British scientist involved in those big lies of Tony Blair regarding nuclear weapons in Iraq. The poor scientist was killed by MI5, 6 or other digit, and the killing (murder) was arranged as a suicide. Similar case as with Lady Di, who was prevented by the same MIn from having a muslim child...