Stanisław Lem - Forum

English => Forum in English => Wątek zaczęty przez: Scuba Diver w Październik 30, 2004, 06:40:16 am

Tytuł: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Scuba Diver w Październik 30, 2004, 06:40:16 am
Why did he kill Pirx?! ??? ??? ???
Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Październik 30, 2004, 08:06:10 pm
Why shouldn't he?
Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Karel w Listopad 01, 2004, 07:36:15 am
It was not Pirx. It was Tempe...
Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Scuba_Diver w Listopad 01, 2004, 07:57:12 am
Pirx died on Titan (sorry if name of the planet is not correct-in russian it is TITAN), and Tempe was this young pilot, Angus. It is directly said there..  
Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Karel w Listopad 01, 2004, 11:18:04 am
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Pirx died on Titan   

Yes...he was "vitrificated" with hope of resurrection on mind. Can we call it death?
Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Listopad 08, 2004, 02:33:40 am
Both Tempe and Pirx were vitrificated. First it was Pirx, who left the base, and then it was Tempe, who went looking for Pirx.

But only Tempe was brought back to life aboard the starship.

Therefore the reasons of killing Pirx are infact all described in the "Fiasco".

In my opinion it is even better that Lem has encluded Pirx character in this novel. At least we know how Pirx'es life ended, which we could'n guess otherwise, as it wasn't descriped in "Tales of Pirx the pilot".

Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: dzi w Listopad 12, 2004, 01:41:10 am
cuz Lem writes true stories... and in true stories people die
;)
Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Listopad 12, 2004, 03:52:00 pm
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cuz Lem writes true stories... and in true stories people die
;)


And have you ever seen a true vitrification?

I know that's not what you mean, I'm just toying...
Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: SoGo w Listopad 25, 2004, 02:47:28 pm
I say you the reason those made him killed:

HE HAD SEEN THE QUINTANIAN!

And everyone who had a contact with a foreign intellect, must die. That is, because Lem don't want to draw a picture of a foreign intelligence because he know it MUST be wrong.

So, with his Fiasko (we would made the same as the Quintanian with an starship which would came to us)
he should how it would goes: No Contact, because no one wan't it.

And as they don't flee, everybody in this scenario must die: The Intelligence, The Mission

And Pirx, because he saw the Quintanian.

I think the Quintanian had been the white ants, because of (naked white bodys) and the novel in the novel (from the old man in africa)

You think its right?
Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Listopad 25, 2004, 04:15:22 pm
Hehe, it wasn't Pirx who saw Quintanians. It was Tempe.

Don't bother, Lem killed them both anyway  ::)
Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Karel w Listopad 26, 2004, 05:00:59 pm
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I think the Quintanian had been the white ants, because of (naked white bodys) and the novel in the novel (from the old man in africa)

You think its right?


Do you mean:

1) intelligent entities (after all they developed hi-technology)
2) intelligent, but militaristic civilisation
3) insect ruled only by instincts
4) aliens (like in horror movies)
5) "evil" (as said by father Arago)

Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Listopad 27, 2004, 03:15:26 am
Sory for interferring, but in my opinion Quintanians had to be intelligent. Didn't they negotiate with the Earth ship's crew?
Of course, it could have been some other form of intelligence; for example it is safe to assume, that the certain group of Quintanians might be called ,,intelligent'', whereas the individuals are not intelligent (by the means of human understanding).

One more thing. I don't think the world ''evil'' (as used by father Arago) could describe any unhuman being. The evil itself is a human concept, based on some features of a human soul and is (evil) strongly connected with the ability to criticise individual human acts.    It is highly unlikely for Quintanians to be similar to humans in any way; therefore the conception of evil itself is, I think, unadequate.
Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: SoGo w Grudzień 12, 2004, 02:58:42 pm
I think about Quintanian:
There are intelligent in the way they build something.
They had produced energy and build the ice ring.
Which motivation isn't the question.
That they was able to create is a form of intelligence.

They aren't bad, because you can't say what is bad for them.

And Tempe didn't know who he was.
He is one of the missed, that's it.
But I think, Lem meaned Pirx, who is getting any risk to do something, what no figure had done in any other novells of Lem: He had seen a foreign lifeform
(intelligence in the way I explained upstairs)
Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Karel w Grudzień 14, 2004, 03:37:38 pm
Agreed with your description of Quintanians.
In this story, people was not able to make contact  (a couple of messages is nothing), Pirx died, Tempe died, but main idea is (in my opinion) fatal effects of misunderstanding. Why should we cry for Pirx, if there were killed all Quintanians   ??? ??? ???
That is why it is named Fiasco
Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Grudzień 16, 2004, 02:45:26 am
We cry for Pirx and the Quinanians as well...

Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Karel w Grudzień 16, 2004, 08:40:10 am
...what about Tempe?
Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Grudzień 17, 2004, 01:46:32 am
Naaaa.... I still say it was Tempe.
Wrote ,,Pirx" to satisfy nonbelievers  :D

(He will be missed too !)
Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: SoGo w Grudzień 19, 2004, 02:22:24 pm
Maybe we call him the "Pilot" to avoid misunderstandings by the names.

I say: It was a form of Contact in Fiasco
A very crude one, but it was.
In any else novell of Lem, two lifeforms, beared by their own evolution, get together.
Ok, we contacted with robots, but thats not the same, because we know their evolution.
There is one we do not understand.
Nowhere else Lem had let that happen.

So I think, that the "Pilot" had the change to analyze the Quintanian just with one look is a form of contact.

We can say that the Quintanian had naked white bodies.
So we know there aren't black huge stones.
Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Robert Konigsberg w Grudzień 26, 2005, 10:30:58 am
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But only Tempe was brought back to life aboard the starship.


I've read Fiasco twice, but I have been unable to understand which of the two pilots survied vitrification. Can someone be explicit in explaining how it's clear?
Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Grudzień 26, 2005, 06:42:19 pm
I, too, regarded Tempe as being Parvis, but only because it felt right to me. I don't remember there being any particular evidence one way or the other.
Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: def w Grudzień 27, 2005, 02:12:22 am
One of the greatest things about books is you imagine what the people look like. The better the description the more vivid image.So if you see a film which has been made based on the book it ruins all the image that you had of that person.
Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Grudzień 27, 2005, 02:35:47 am
Hm, back to Pirx & Tempe matter, I still think that Pirx just wasn't brought out from the frosty state.
Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Miranda w Grudzień 29, 2005, 01:35:37 am
I think I´ll have a look into Fiasco. Seems to have a puzzling end.

but why is it, fisch, you say, that only in Fiasco one of Lems characters sees an intelligent alien that created something? What about the Stardiaries or Eden?

Even though you are right that Lem avoids explanations of aliens. The concept of alien is difference beyond understanding. As soon as you know the alien he is no alien any more. OOOps, too bad, isn´t it? So, a fine brain like Lem, never attempts to fully describe the unknown in the alien.
And more than that: what are the chances of different lifeforms to communicate in compatible ways? small, I´d say.  
Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Grudzień 30, 2005, 01:11:51 am
Well, I can understand omitting Star Diaries - those were just fun.
Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: def w Grudzień 31, 2005, 03:22:36 am
The ending of The futurlogical congress was comical. Ending up in the sewers all that had just happened being another hallucination.
Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Grudzień 31, 2005, 12:50:07 pm
Yeah, I admit it was sort of relieving for me, because if all that had really happened, I would have had hard time believing it was true.
Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: def w Grudzień 31, 2005, 02:27:27 pm
Yes especialy the ending were there are robots and he could see, before going backwards out the window. That's the bit which I was finding hard to believe before he ended up back in the sewer and it was all a halucination. Anyway moving on from this any other things worth mentioning about other Lem books.  
Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: def w Styczeń 07, 2006, 02:36:22 am
Sorry for the double post, I just started reading star diaries, thanks for the recomendation Terminus. I was just wondering is the 26th voyage written, and if so it it possible to purchase it (in english)?
Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Styczeń 07, 2006, 05:55:11 am
I'm pretty sure that the 26th is not available in English. I think the only versions are Polish and German.
Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: def w Styczeń 07, 2006, 10:00:01 pm
That could be the next job for socrates. Although I'm sure he has many other things to do.
Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Styczeń 13, 2006, 02:54:31 am
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That could be the next job for Socrates. Although I'm sure he has many other things to do.


Well, he's in China, having fun ::).
But who knows, maybe he's done that translation already; wouldn't suprise me.

Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Socrates w Styczeń 21, 2006, 04:46:34 pm
Hey all,
which one is the 26th?  Can somone scan it and send me a copy (in Polish)?  
Been quite busy lately - got to particpate in snow carving competition here in Harbin - this is our sculpture (got to represent Poland!)  http://www.chinanews.cn/news/2005/2006-01-14/17429.html.
Cheers all,
Socrates
Tytuł: Re: Why?!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Styczeń 22, 2006, 08:02:35 pm
The 26th is the one which only appeared inthe first edition in Polish, having later been deemed apocryphal by the Tichologists!