Stanisław Lem - Forum

English => Forum in English => Wątek zaczęty przez: innate w Wrzesień 27, 2005, 02:21:48 am

Tytuł: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Wrzesień 27, 2005, 02:21:48 am
Sometimes people argue that a writer or a specific work can only be understood by people who lived in that time or place. In Lem's case, he writes about universal themes that, I'd think, could be understood reasonably well regardless of one's personal circumstances. But, then, I would think that, wouldn't I? Perhaps you have another perspective.

(man, way too quiet here; maybe it would be easier just to learn Polish and play with the cool kids)
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Wrzesień 27, 2005, 03:06:36 am
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(man, way too quiet here; maybe it would be easier just to learn Polish and play with the cool kids)


...not a bad idea ::)

There are too few active members here, compared to  the Polish section. Nevertheless, one can still enjoy some fruitfull chats :]

Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Wrzesień 27, 2005, 05:28:02 am
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...not a bad idea.


I'm at least half-serious with all of this, you know.
I like an intellectual challenge. On the other hand, I'm easily distractible...
Wow, I've just about summed myself up in those last two sentences.
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Deckard w Wrzesień 27, 2005, 09:44:09 am
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Sometimes people argue that a writer or a specific work can only be understood by people who lived in that time or place. In Lem's case, he writes about universal themes that, I'd think, could be understood reasonably well regardless of one's personal circumstances. But, then, I would think that, wouldn't I? Perhaps you have another perspective.



I don't undestand it. Could You please give me an example of such a book which is hard to understand by us (nowadays) and was written in the past?


CU
Deck
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Deckard w Wrzesień 27, 2005, 09:49:36 am
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(man, way too quiet here; maybe it would be easier just to learn Polish and play with the cool kids)


Hey, You keep this section of the forum pretty active, so don't worry... :-)
If thread is interesting to me I will always take part in the disscussion.

CU
Deck
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Socrates w Wrzesień 27, 2005, 12:27:45 pm
I'll accept the challange, innate, if my abilities are up to it.  
Cheers, Socrates
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Ritch w Wrzesień 27, 2005, 06:52:19 pm
Well, if today we can read works such as Star Diaries, Cyberiad, Memoirs found in a bath..., Imaginary magnitude (you name it), works writed +-half a century ago!, and still laugh, enjoy, think, argue about it... then I think Lem is in the path of become a classic, this is, universal.

So, I think Lem deserve such adjective, too.

(Well, Lem is my favorite fiction author, so mi opinion is subjetive too ::))




I keep an eye on this board, altough I dont write as much as I wish, because (as you can see) my english skills are too poor to mantain a decent conversation about the intricating debates the work of Lem raise.

So, I appreciate all your interesting comments, disregard I not always can reply. In particular I wish to thank to Deckard his review about "Bomba Megabitowa"  :); the Lem's nonfiction is very very scarce in english (not to mention in spanish, my native tongue), so I really appreciate each bit of information about the last writings of Lem ;).

Ritch

ps
Feel free to correct any of my english sentences, I'll be very thankful, 'cause I'll learn a bit more of english ;).
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Socrates w Wrzesień 27, 2005, 07:10:44 pm
Ok, here it goes:
I am generally opposed to the idea that ideas, feelings and situations in books are non-transmutable to people living outside the specific times and places when and where these books were first written.   The writer is a person who, it is true, lives in a particular place and in a particular time, but whose individual experiances may be so different from what the general "normal" experiances are of the rest of the population that many times his works are not reflective of those times and places in the least.  Take, for example, someone who lives their entire life in their house - as many writers in history have done - and yet who writes about travels and peoples far removed from their dwelling place.  A perfect example is Karl May - the man never visited America, yet he wrote the famous Winetou-Old Shatterhand-Old Firehand stories.  Were these stories reflective of truth about American Indians or about the American West?  Did people behave how they did in May's books?  Probably not.  And if not, then May's books are purely fiction, in which case time and place have no bearing on the stories as for them to be understood one simply needs some previous knowledge of the particulars of late 19th century America (ie, one needs to know who an Indian was, and what was a rifle, etc).  
As well, how much of the experiances of the author should we go through before we too can understand what the author writes about?  Are books only to be understood by the writers themselves?  Can any other person actually realize which of the parts of the book the writer wanted to emphasize and concentrate upon vs the filler material written only because the writer was lazy and wanted to thicken his work?  To accept that time and place are very important (crucial, in fact) things which no person could attain who hasn't actually lived through them also means that one has to accept that all books, essays or stories cannot ever be fully (or even in a significant part) appreciated by anyone else but the author himself.  The reason is that individual experiaces the writer has colour his vision and his understanding in some way - thus love may mean something to him than it does to other people, as could any other thing.
Another reason why I don't believe that argument is because I truly believe that all people can and do exhibit the same types of emotions, feelings and reasoning (except for anomalies).  The feeling of pride as described in the Illiad vs in some modern literary work is exactly the same.  Hope is the same, as is greed, or hunger, pain, etc.  These things are universal.  What might change is the setting, and the significance of particular things in the society, but human emotions and actions do not change.  Thus, as long as one is fairly well versed in history and customs of the ages one is reading about, one should be able to have no problems understanding most books.
 
What this means is that to understand Lem one has to work really hard to understand Poland of the last century, the ties to Russia, communism, waiting in lines for bread, Polish literary history, Polish humour, etc, etc.  But if one does study these things, and has an imagination large enough, I don't see a reason why one should not be able to understand Lem or any other writer Poland ever produced.  Thus, a pure virgin to Polish might misuderstand many of the things Lem writes about.  He will miss the razor-sharp puns Lem makes, and miss some cultural references.  He might get the general drift of the stories, but without those little additions he will not fully understand what was written.  But with some study, he should have no problem understanding the true meaning.

To my English friends who want to read the Good Soldier Svejk by Hasek I always say this:  read 50 other Czech books, see some Slavic movies, and eat some Slavic foods.    If you can, visit the Czech republic, and date someone living in those parts of the world.  After you do that for 1-2 years, you will be ready to appreciate Hasek to the fullest.

The above is a perosnal opinion, and you are free to disagree with it.  Sorry for the authoritative style, but that is sometimes how I write.
Cheers, Socrates  
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Deckard w Wrzesień 27, 2005, 10:09:36 pm
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In particular I wish to thank to Deckard his review about "Bomba Megabitowa"  


You're welcome Ritch.

If You are interested in it more I could try to look through my notes I made during reading this book and write them down here for You and for other foreign Lem fans.
Don't keep it as a promise, but if I have some free time I could give it a try.

CU
Deck
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Wrzesień 27, 2005, 10:22:16 pm
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I don't understand it. Could You please give me an example of such a book which is hard to understand by us (nowadays) and was written in the past?

The other day, I saw something written about how the Strugatskys' Tale of the Troika could only be understood by people who had lived under Soviet control. I actually skimmed through it maybe a year ago, and it didn't interest me very much, but then I don't like books very much that involve magic... I suppose it's possible that I would have enjoyed it more if I recognized that precise brand of bureaucratic insanity from my personal experience...

Ritch: Even if it takes you some time to write in English, it is easy to understand you.

Socrates:

(by challenge, I meant of learning a language)

That was so good that it leaves almost nothing more to be said!

It does occur to me that, in some cases, being of the same culture could be an impediment because one may have a popular caricature of an author in mind, false preconceptions that are hard to shake.
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Wrzesień 27, 2005, 10:41:36 pm
a further thought:
Cytuj
The writer is a person who, it is true, lives in a particular place and in a particular time, but whose individual experiences may be so different from what the general "normal" experiences are of the rest of the population that many times his works are not reflective of those times and places in the least.

This is a very interesting point. Considering what is "normal" among humans, it may be that anybody with something valuable to say is very atypical. (though it's disappointing, then, to think that the places where all of you live are not filled with people like you!)
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Deckard w Wrzesień 27, 2005, 10:56:27 pm
OK, innate now I get it.
In fact there are some movies which I believe could be barely understood by people who didn't know the reality of living in Poland under communistic regime. I think about commedies made by Stanisław Bareja - Polish members of this forum certainly know his TV shows.

But this actually goes around what Socrates had already written about Hasek's book. If someone not originally related to Slavonic culture wants to know what's goin' on in this story one needs to learn something about Czech history, talk to Czech people and read some books about this crazy time of the Habsburg Monarchy.

CU
Deck
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Wrzesień 28, 2005, 12:23:58 am
Well luckily for the non-Polish people, some of Lem's ideas have little to do with Poland or its reality. Take Solaris for example. Only some pushy critics could suggest that the knowledge of Poland is indispensable if one is to fully 'get it'.

However, ,,Mortal Engines" or ,,Cyberiad" are examples of masterpieces that make being a Pole such an unique experience (it's almost as 'cool' as being the North Pole). Humour here is  a b s o l u t e l y non-universal and deeply nested in Polish culture, Polish language in its 17th-century- form, and so much more...

It doesn't make Poland or our language exceptional, as Socrates said (Hasek's example), but  brings us closer to conclude that some aspects of Lem's creations are, and some aren't universal (whoa, a crucial disclosure :] :] ) .

Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Wrzesień 28, 2005, 04:07:30 am
What makes all of this hard to grasp is that I don't feel like there's anything much that I can understand uniquely due to living in my own little corner of the world. I like Henry Thoreau quite a bit, and people say that he had a very American spirit, but, other than the fact that you would lose an incredible amount if you can't read Walden in English, I don't know what would be completely foreign in it for you. Of course, I've never tried reading it with that in mind...
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Agent101 w Wrzesień 28, 2005, 02:15:59 pm
Possibly you can see the option of something like going off and setting up in wilderness for yourself.

However in overcrowded in Britain it doesn't make much sense. Our landscape is very managed, throughout the country you are most likely going to be near farms/managed forest or unproductive and inhospitable land.

I think it is that sense of constraint that makes British politics different from American (and even more different from American Rural areas).
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Socrates w Wrzesień 28, 2005, 06:14:41 pm
Ah yes, but if one has misconceptions about the writer by virtue of being from the same coulture, think about the misconceptions one may have about wirters of a different coulture - that is, think about Zola and what you really know about him vs what would be known about him by the general French reader.  I can see your point, though - perhaps Salman Rushdie is one example of a writer who was vilified by the muslim world so much so that people outisde of the islamic countries might know more about him than those living inside (beacuse the them he is a villian who should not be read or even mentioned).

Terminus, you are right - but then again that was known right at the outset.  Some of the universal things he's written about are obviously easily understood by the general public, but some non-universal things only by Poles.  The language is particular, and the specific events in Polish history are not shared by other nations - this means that only those who studied those things will undertsnd the references in Lem's works.  The Polish Language is exceptional in that Lem is a user of the language - he uses it to bring about an aim (to amuse or situmalte the reader), and not the other way around (the language uses Lem for some purpose).  Thus, the only reason why all of Lem's stories are not Universal is very simply because the language he uses is not universal - it is exceptional and particular to Poland, hence making the stories themselves exceptional.
Cheers, Socrates
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Wrzesień 28, 2005, 07:28:01 pm
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Terminus, you are right - but then again that was known right at the outset.  


Yes, but what wasn't?
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Wrzesień 28, 2005, 08:53:38 pm
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However in overcrowded in Britain it doesn't make much sense. Our landscape is very managed, throughout the country you are most likely going to  be near farms/managed forest or unproductive and inhospitable land.

I would have thought that the ability to relate to the idea of getting away from distraction and unnecessary things would be at least as strong for those whose lives are filled with them...

Cytuj
Ah yes, but if one has misconceptions about the writer by  virtue of being from the same culture, think about the misconceptions one may have about writers of a different culture

Sure, I'll agree with that. In your example, though, well...I'm not very cultured, you see. If you offered me some renminbi if I could name who Zola was, I wouldn't have been able to come up with anything more than Zola Budd (an athlete).
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Agent101 w Wrzesień 28, 2005, 09:31:38 pm
I can relate to wanting to get away, it is the manner of escape that doesn't ring so true.
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Październik 08, 2005, 04:00:29 am
(this is similar enough to the original topic that I didn't want to start a separate thread for it)

Is it possible for a work in translation to be superior to the original?
I could imagine it happening if an author is very inventive but his use of language is inelegant.
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Sternenfisch w Październik 08, 2005, 10:20:42 am
I would say, Lem is more universally than any other author.
But nothing is a universally as it could be understand in any time, on any place (expect maths, physic and chemic, mechanic). But spoken languages are selections, and in so, they aren't universal enough
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Październik 08, 2005, 01:19:53 pm
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Is it possible for a work in translation to be superior to the original?
I could imagine it happening if an author is very inventive but his use of language is inelegant.


You mean a situation where translator corrects author's mistakes?

Hm... for me, this question of Yours is tough, 'cause I'd need to have 'superiority' well defined first ::)

But I think that yes, it is possible. I've read poetry tlanslations, that seemed much more sophisticated than the originals... and so on.
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Październik 09, 2005, 01:15:51 am
I was thinking of a scenario like... let's say that I had a really good idea for some story and I tried to write it. I'm not a writer, so the prose wouldn't be very smooth and the dialogue would not sound authentic. And suppose that you translated it, not changing what happens at all, but simply choosing the right words and making everything sound natural...

If it needed more fixing than that, it'd make more sense for you to write your own story instead.
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Sternenfisch w Październik 09, 2005, 10:42:38 am
Not necessary.
When you don't know, how your figures should act and what to speak, your old, bad story could be a good base for the translated writing.
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Październik 09, 2005, 03:31:44 pm
Well, that's what she meant, isn't it?
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Socrates w Październik 17, 2005, 05:39:15 pm
In my humble opinion, it can - but then it's not a true translation but rather an embellished translator's rendition and interpretation of the original work.  The question is, should wirters do that?  Take the Illiad - dry in its original form (I was told by greeks ), but quite readable in prose format (I've read a few versions, and the most interesting ones were not in verse).  But are translators allowed to do that?  Can they improve on the original?
Cheers, Socrates
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Deckard w Październik 17, 2005, 08:50:18 pm
I think translators shouldn't improve the original. Translation should concur with the original as strictly as possible. After all this is the main principle of translating, isnt' it?
Enhanced translation could be called an interpretation.


CU
Deck
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Październik 18, 2005, 02:06:37 am
But then again it's not always possible to be strictly accurate when, for example, one translates poetry.  Obviously, rhytm and meaning are clearly separate in verse.   Therefore it could be arranged for poetry translations to include both strict and improved (enchaced) text.  Only second one would rhyme.
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Deckard w Październik 18, 2005, 10:09:42 am
hmmmm...  :-/ I didn't think about poetry. In this case You may be right.

CU
Deck
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Październik 21, 2005, 04:40:40 am
I wanted to read Faust one day, but I was disappointed when the translation that I found still rhymed. Didn't read it. (likes prose better in any case)
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Październik 27, 2005, 01:36:43 am
Hehe, You should check out Poland's Pan Tadeusz ::)
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Październik 27, 2005, 06:03:33 am
Now to see if I ever find myself near a library that has it someday.

Yet another famous thing that I'd never heard of... (You guys showed up on the news a bit in the 1980s with Solidarność and Wałęsa, but that's about all. Since coming here, though, I've started reading a little about Poland. All kinds of interesting and strange things like Pekao fake-dollars. Pity this isn't a Poland forum...)
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Deckert w Październik 27, 2005, 09:48:52 am
Nice to see polish fonts in your posts innate.  ;)

If You have any questions about Poland just ask.

CU
Deck
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Socrates w Październik 27, 2005, 01:12:06 pm
I miss Poland a bit...I left in 91'; I still remember Perla Baltyku, brown toilet paper and zapiekanki...I have no knowledge of the new Poland; the Poland in my mind exists no more.  But neither am I fully Canadian.  I'm a kind of a perpetual outsider.  Sorry, feeling nostaligic on this cold Harbin night.
Cheers, Socrates
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Deckert w Październik 27, 2005, 01:48:21 pm
So you left Poland quite a long time ago. I'm sure that a lot of things changed and turned better (and some turned worse), but since I live in Poland all changes are natural to me and I see them as a natural course of events. I think the best test of how Poland changed would be if someone like You had visited this country and objectively judged the transformations.

CU
Deck
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Październik 27, 2005, 03:57:24 pm
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Yet another famous thing that I'd never heard of... (You guys showed up on the news a bit in the 1980s with Solidarność and Wałęsa, but that's about all.

Well, so what. It's not about being in the news, is it.

Cytuj
Since coming here, though, I've started reading a little about Poland. All kinds of interesting and strange things like Pekao fake-dollars. Pity this isn't a Poland forum...)


What's the problem. You can freely talk about Poland, no problem. Ideas of Pekao are no match for some other fascinating paradoxes that are/were quite usual here.
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Październik 28, 2005, 12:13:51 am
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since I live in Poland all changes are natural to me and I see them as a natural course of events.

It's amazing sometimes to step back and see what can happen over time. I often think about the changes in the US over the past five years. For example, everybody knows that we talk incessantly about the idea of free speech, and yet we have the concept of "free speech zones" nowadays. Or how it would have been just about impossible five years ago to find people talking about torture as a reasonable thing. Nearly imperceptible changes, day by day. Still, for most of us, our daily lives have not changed much yet.

Cytuj
It's not about being in the news, is it?
I will agree with this without hesitation!

Cytuj
Ideas of Pekao are no match for some other fascinating paradoxes that are/were quite usual here.
I don't doubt it... It would be illuminating if you could mention a few.
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Październik 31, 2005, 03:51:43 am
Well, Poles are known for the unbelieveable resourcefullness. Take this, for example: we've just recently had a national election here: one for the new government, and two weeks later for the new president of Poland. And during these, some people started to advertise through 'Allegro' (Poland's most popular e-shopping center, like eBay) that they would sell their voices !
One wishing to buy the voices had to pay 50PLN for it (about 12.5 $), and the seller was even willing to make a photo (using a camera in cellphone) of the  voting-form filled by him/her ::)
Of course we have fair election, so these people wanted to sell only their own voices, it wasn't like you could have bought 50 thousand of these :) (hot stuff though, wouldn't suprise me ::)  ).

It was cool in my opinion.

If you wonder how it all concluded - the e-auction was of course quickly erased from public. But who knows what really happended, and how many people did such things :)

It was just an example, first one that crossed my mind.
The story about PKO-Dollars you mentioned is one referring to the communism era in Poland (years 1945-89) and it is much easier to find a story from that time, that from nowadays. These stories from the past are so numerous, that You could start entire new forum about that, and, suprisingly, among many frightening ones there are also migty many of crazy-funny ones.

It's just too much. For example: just try to imagine, that you are walking down the street, and feel thirsty. You find a drinks-selling-machine, that is coin operated. But guess what - if you want a drink (warm "lemonade"), there is no can to drink from - you insert a coin, and the fluid starts to fill... the glass that is CHAINED to the machine (I mean the metal chain connects the glass to it). Forget the hygene - noone steals the glass, that's what counts :)

eeech.  just too many memories...
Cheers.
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Październik 31, 2005, 09:17:52 am
We had some of the same with eBay in the last presidential election, also with the auctions being quickly taken down. (You can't use "voice" to mean "vote" like that in English, by the way.) I don't know how seriously you meant it when you spoke of having fair elections, but I wish we had fair elections.

Glass and lack of hygiene: Eeewwwwww!!
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Październik 31, 2005, 01:41:28 pm
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(You can't use "voice" to mean "vote" like that in English, by the way.)


ou, sorry, my mistake :) I knew something wasn't right there :)
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Listopad 01, 2005, 06:43:55 am
I don't feel like looking up which thread it was in, but we were talking a while back about Slavs being rather proud of their complex languages.

It occurred to me that I know how many inches are in a foot, how many feet are in a yard, and how many yards are in a mile. I know how many teaspoons are in a tablespoon, how many tablespoons are in a cup, how many cups are in a pint, how many pints are in a quart, and how many quarts are in a gallon. I know how many ounces are in a pound, and how many pounds are in a ton. There are many, many, many more of these in more specialized use.

I'd definitely prefer metric.
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Listopad 01, 2005, 05:59:45 pm
I've no idea what Slavs got to do with Your measures system, but if you suggest it's complicated, then yes, it is.
However you may not know that we also used systems of measures derived from tradition, and words such as "pud" or "siąg" (other: "piędź", "mendel", "sztyga", "gros", "zagon", end about 100 more) and so on are not yet forgotten. But it was all abandoned few hundred years ago - because it was clearly useless.

To me, it's just Slavs are less bound-to-tradition than practical.
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Listopad 02, 2005, 03:05:08 am
But the language discussion had been about being proud of tradition and not being very practical...
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Listopad 02, 2005, 03:24:13 am
I thought it was about language being complicated - now when You show complicated English measure elements, I show Polish analogs, and mine is still on top  :P
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Listopad 02, 2005, 03:36:51 am
Okay, you can win the prize for the most complication if you like.

I thought you were a mathematician, though. You're supposed to love simple, powerful, elegant things. Great richness born of simple underlying pattern. Maybe you're a Rebel Mathematician.
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Listopad 02, 2005, 01:56:52 pm
Naa, being a mathematician cannot mean that I will extrapolate my appreciation for elegance of simplicity everywhere else. Should I think ABBA is greater than Bach because their music is less complicated?

But more important thing is, that it's not about what I like.  

Mind that I don't think that Polish is in anyway better or greater than English. I just don't think so.  I just give you proofs that, the way I see it,  it's more complicated. That's all. I don't present any appraisals of English, or Polish, nor try to compare them by means of 'greatness'.

But like it was said before, I am aware that English is nowadays present in the media in somewhat simplified form; which leads to the conclusion, that:

1.it might be rich and complicated -but I don't know it

hence

2.  we are quarelling over nothing at all really.

Hope it's all clearer now.

Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Listopad 02, 2005, 09:06:47 pm
Sorry, I was trying to show that I wasn't being very serious by my use of the word 'rebel', since we tend to use it in a sarcastic and joking sense...
Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Listopad 03, 2005, 01:47:14 am
As for rebellion in Mathematics, I think I'm not a part of it. My views are rather traditional. In other words, I worship harmony, regardless of the level of its complication.

Tytuł: Re: universally accessible?
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Listopad 03, 2005, 09:40:09 am
It is not a quarrel, but misunderstanding.

I wrote things without realizing that we were still speaking in the specific context of two particular natural languages...and what I meant by complexity-from-simplicity is evidently not what you thought of when I wrote it...and of course I was playing with fire to have attempted good-natured teasing as a non-smiley-user.