Stanisław Lem - Forum
English => Forum in English => Wątek zaczęty przez: innate w Lutego 07, 2006, 10:09:19 pm
-
In my time here, I think I've turned at least four or five threads in the direction of discussion of Polish (because...because it's interesting!). I might as well just have one dedicated thread instead.
Anyway, today's question: kilkunastu: "several tens" or "somewhere in the teens"?
-
That's great if You think that Polish is an interesting language, 'coz in fact it is... ;)
Anyway I suggest you shoud get in touch with some teacher. Without it, it's gonna be really hard task for you to learn Polish. It's not that easy as Esperanto.
kilkunastu can be a part of a sentence like kilkunastu naukowców which is a few dozens of scientists. So You're right, it's "several tens". The most general form of this quatifier is kilkanaście.
CU
Deck
-
... Esperanto... yeah::) made in Poland too ::)
-
Thanks. I promise not to bug you guys too much...
-
Why? Bug us, man (woman, whatever.. I still don't know)!
How about some sentences? Have you learned enough to assemble something more than just single words?
Let me give you a test sentence, translate it!
It goes like: "Czytajcie Lema, lepszego nie ma!". Huh?
-
It looks like Read Lem, nothing's better to me.
-
That's right.
So... it seems you're doing quite well!
In this case I won't be tormenting you with tests and questions - instead letting you ask about anything whenever you want.
By the way, today in the bookstore I saw "Highcastle" (english edition) and the price of it was 45PLN, which is about 3 times more than one has to pay in Poland for the Polish edition::) I think it's outrageus::)
-
After looking at the exchange rate, I'd say it depends on whether it was new.
-
more words: zadość, żaren, przyjąwszy, obwarowałem, sroższej, spojeniach.
(Don't worry about the suffixes)
-
Almost all of those words are declined forms, let me give you basic ones:
more words: zadość, żaren, przyjąwszy, obwarowałem, sroższej, spojeniach.
zadość=dość
żarna (noun, prular) żarno (single)
przyjąć (verb)
obwarować (verb)
srogi (adj)
spojenie (noun)
-
Thanks...
I can't find żarno, obwarować, or spojenie.
What does the suffix mean on przyjąwszy if it's a verb? I only knew about -szy for adjectives.
-
żarno is quern (it's a part of a hand-mill used to crush pepper for instance)
obwarować is to fortify (a town etc.)
spojenie is a joint, weld or junction
PS.
przyjąć is a verb meaning to accept, to receive. przyjąwszy is a very specific form of this verb. This is Perfect Participle (Active). I will explain it on the pattern:
Przyjąwszy twoją odpowiedź, wyjechałem z miasta.
This would be:
Having accepted your answer, I left the town.
That's rather easy in English, but complicated in Polish (because of the numerous suffix combinations).
CU
Deck
-
Excellent. This is fun...
-
kilkunastu can be a part of a sentence like kilkunastu naukowców which is a few dozens of scientists. So You're right, it's "several tens". The most general form of this quatifier is kilkanaście.
Ehm, are you really Polish?
"kilkunastu" means of course "somewhere in the teens". In other words: "a number between 11 and 19".
-
"kilkunastu, kilkanaście": 10<x<20
"kilkudziesięciu, kilkadziesiąt": 19<x<100
-
This is sort of besides the point, but I just thought it was interesting how some Polish words are very similar in their structure and definition to Russian
e.g. Baika in Russian is a bedtime story
and then there are words like
obwarować is to fortify (in Polish)
but in Russian
obvarovat' means - to rob (a house)
-
obwarować is to fortify (in Polish)
but in Russian
obvarovat' means - to rob (a house)
Doesn't it come from the gangster slang?
If so, there may be a link between "obwarować" and "obvarovat' " :
"warować" may mean "to watch, to guard", like a dog, for example. But "to watch" or even "to watch patiently" seems to be a better translation.
Now from the viewpoint of a robber, his work must be preceded by a longer observation of a house to be robbed. Which means patient watching but from the other side of walls, so to say.
This explanation may be reasonable. (Native Polish speakers, please compare with "obczaić").
-
Ehm, are you really Polish?
"kilkunastu" means of course "somewhere in the teens". In other words: "a number between 11 and 19".
You are absolutely right. I made a mistake.
CU
Deck
-
Polish words are very similar in their structure and definition to Russian
e.g. Baika in Russian is a bedtime story
Yes, there are many similarities and we have lots of words common/similar-to with the Russians. Such as 'chodzic', 'ty', 'reka' and much, much more...
(Though I don't speak Russian, I like it alot, by the way...)
-
I'm tired of translating "uczony" as "scholar". I wanted to use "scientist", but I saw that it has its own nauk- or nauc- word which I can't remember at the moment. "Researcher" sounds right from context, but I see there's "badacz" for that. "Uczony" is used consistently when talking about work in the sciences, but, to me, "scholar" suggests a person on the other side of CP Snow's cultural divide. (Perhaps a little like how "intellectual" as a noun more or less means "literary intellectual" today.) So, umm, would "researcher" be wrong?
-
Well, 'researcher', in my opinion, wouldn't go right with 'uczony'. I'd rather say that 'uczony' says not much more than that the person knows a LOT. And that's basically it.
This world is nowadays almost out of use, but when it appears, it has this meaning.
In Lem's writings, however, it meant 'scientist'.
-
Ah, it hadn't occurred to me to ask about idiosyncratic usage. Are there certain things that I should be looking out for in my Lem readings? (I did read somewhere that his Polish is supposed to be old-fashioned in general, but of course it all looks the same to me.)
-
I am interested in Lems Polish as well. What is it like? How can you discribe his style and the phrases he uses?
Is it complicated language or rather simple?
(Polish is a very beautiful language. I am studying it but am still far away from judging Lems language myself).
-
Well, 'researcher', in my opinion, wouldn't go right with 'uczony'. I'd rather say that 'uczony' says not much more than that the person knows a LOT. And that's basically it.
This world is nowadays almost out of use, but when it appears, it has this meaning.
In Lem's writings, however, it meant 'scientist'.
Native English speakers, please correct me if my intuitions are wrong:
1. Researcher ("badacz") is someone who carries out the research.
2. Scholar ("uczony"), as I understand this word, is someone who belongs to academia.
However, http://dictionary.reference.com/ says: Scholar: a learned person (especially in the humanities); someone who by long study has gained mastery in one or more disciplines.
3. Scientist ("naukowiec") is actually the same as researcher. A person who 'does science'. A profession.
-
I am interested in Lems Polish as well. What is it like? How can you discribe his style and the phrases he uses?
Is it complicated language or rather simple?
(Polish is a very beautiful language. I am studying it but am still far away from judging Lems language myself).
Lem's language and style is very diverse across different novels. I think that the best for you would be to read his letters to an English translator, where Lem himself tries to explain what his language is like.
In: Stanisław Lem, "Listy albo opór materii", Wydawnictwo Literackie
http://www.wl.net.pl/ksiazka.php?ID=488
-
Just like pirxowa wrote Lem's Polish was different from book to book. Take for instance Golem XIV which is pretty complicated even for us down here in Poland. But after all the complexity of Golem's speach was intended to emphasize Golem's diversity from humans. Bomba megabitowa (which was not yet translated into English) is a bunch of esseys. Lem uses here a language of a philosopher. Many sentences are filled with uncommon words. Some of' em are taken from Latin. Other books like for example Astronauci or Głos Pana is rather a typical language used in novels. But at this point I gotta say that typical language is given in a great form, which means it's coherent, syntactic correct, and sometimes full of poetic inspiration.
CU
Deck
-
Latin: Are there places where it is still routinely taught? I always have to skip over the expressions. Speaking of which, I saw that Ritch was recently considering gathering them and coming up with translations (http://sedice.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=12925). Sounds like a good idea to me.
-
Latin: Are there places where it is still routinely taught?
Sure. Especially, in German-speaking countries there are a lot of highschools ("humanistische Gymnasien") , where ancient Greek and Latin are obligatory. In Poland there are no distinguished schools of this kind but, instead, in all highschools a classical curriculum with obligatory Latin may be chosen.
-
BTW. I'll tell you the easiest way to find out the meaning of latin sentences: www.google.com :-)
-
What's doń? I figure it's probably the genitive plural of something, but I don't know what...
-
What's doń? I figure it's probably the genitive plural of something, but I don't know what...
"doń" is a shorter form of "do niego/do niej". It sounds a little bit archaic and poetic.
-
Ah... Thanks as always...
-
Which novels use "archaic and poetic" language, which do not? And what is complicated about Golem XIV in detail? The terminology, the structure of the sentences?
Are there passages or books you know where Lem uses very colloquial expressions or language?
-
Well, the 'archaic & poetic' style, as you described it, appears in The Tales of the Robots (aka Mortal Engines + Cosmic Carnival). Also, partly, in Cyberiad.
As for Golem XIV, yes, the difficulties lie in the terminology. Mostly because he uses words that may be hard to understand for most people. Also, the logical structure of the language Golem uses may be hard to follow, as it is very complex.
As for colloquialisms, I don't recall to many examples.
-
Where does the word bohater come from, that is, what is its etymology?
[BTW, Terminus, I just noticed that you mentioned Cosmic Carnival. That book was sort of a Lem 'sampler', short stories and chapters from here and there. I don't think it has anything that we don't have available in some other book.]
-
[ "Czytajcie Lema, lepszego nie ma!". Huh?
Read Lem, Whos better, ehm?
-
Where does the word bohater come from, that is, what is its etymology?
Very ancient and complicated...
http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=8392&pid=113511&st=45&#entry113511
(I hope you understand their explanations in Polish.)
However http://www.northvegr.org/lore/grimmst/015_01.php claims something a little bit different... (see Endnote 8 ).
Anyway, this word is much older than Polish language and comes from the times when we lived somewhere in Asia :-)
-
Latin: Are there places where it is still routinely taught? I always have to skip over the expressions. Speaking of which, I saw that Ritch was recently considering gathering them and coming up with translations (http://sedice.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=12925). Sounds like a good idea to me.
I can proudly inform you that the Finnish broadcasting company is the only onw on Earth broadcasting news bulletins in Latin!
Pekka 8)