Stanisław Lem - Forum

English => Forum in English => Wątek zaczęty przez: innate w Lutego 07, 2006, 10:09:19 pm

Tytuł: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Lutego 07, 2006, 10:09:19 pm
In my time here, I think I've turned at least four or five threads in the direction of discussion of Polish (because...because it's interesting!). I might as well just have one dedicated thread instead.

Anyway, today's question: kilkunastu: "several tens"  or "somewhere in the teens"?
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Deckert w Lutego 07, 2006, 10:28:08 pm
That's great if You think that Polish is an interesting language, 'coz in fact it is...  ;)
Anyway I suggest you shoud get in touch with some teacher. Without it, it's gonna be really hard task for you to learn Polish. It's not that easy as Esperanto.

kilkunastu can be a part of a sentence like kilkunastu naukowców which is a few dozens of scientists. So You're right, it's "several tens". The most general form of this quatifier is kilkanaście.

CU
Deck
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Lutego 07, 2006, 11:13:26 pm
... Esperanto... yeah::) made in Poland too ::)
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Lutego 08, 2006, 02:51:38 am
Thanks. I promise not to bug you guys too much...
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Lutego 08, 2006, 03:04:06 am
Why? Bug us, man (woman, whatever.. I still don't know)!

How about some sentences? Have you learned enough to assemble something more than just single words?
Let me give you a test sentence, translate it!

It goes like: "Czytajcie Lema, lepszego nie ma!". Huh?

Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Lutego 08, 2006, 05:47:01 am
It looks like Read Lem, nothing's better to me.
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Lutego 09, 2006, 02:37:52 am
That's right.

So... it seems you're doing quite well!
In this case I won't be tormenting you with tests and questions - instead letting you ask about anything whenever you want.

By the way, today in the bookstore I saw "Highcastle" (english edition) and the price of it was 45PLN, which is about 3 times more than one has to pay in Poland for the Polish edition::) I think it's outrageus::)
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Lutego 09, 2006, 05:48:39 am
After looking at the exchange rate, I'd say it depends on whether it was new.
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Lutego 10, 2006, 09:20:44 am
more words: zadość, żaren, przyjąwszy, obwarowałem, sroższej, spojeniach.
(Don't worry about the suffixes)
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Lutego 10, 2006, 09:38:30 pm
Almost all of those words are declined forms, let me give you basic ones:

more words: zadość, żaren, przyjąwszy, obwarowałem, sroższej, spojeniach.

zadość=dość
żarna (noun, prular) żarno (single)
przyjąć (verb)
obwarować (verb)
srogi (adj)
spojenie (noun)
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Lutego 11, 2006, 02:59:23 am
Thanks...
I can't find żarno, obwarować, or spojenie.
What does the suffix mean on przyjąwszy if it's a verb? I only knew about -szy for adjectives.
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Deckard w Lutego 11, 2006, 09:34:46 am
żarno is quern (it's a part of a hand-mill used to crush pepper for instance)
obwarować is to fortify (a town etc.)
spojenie is a joint, weld or junction

PS.
przyjąć is a verb meaning to accept, to receive. przyjąwszy is a very specific form of this verb. This is Perfect Participle (Active). I will explain it on the pattern:

Przyjąwszy twoją odpowiedź, wyjechałem z miasta.

This would be:

Having accepted your answer, I left the town.

That's rather easy in English, but complicated in Polish (because of the numerous suffix combinations).

CU
Deck


Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Lutego 11, 2006, 08:01:31 pm
Excellent. This is fun...
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: pirxowa w Lutego 12, 2006, 10:25:10 pm
Cytuj
kilkunastu can be a part of a sentence like kilkunastu naukowców which is a few dozens of scientists. So You're right, it's "several tens". The most general form of this quatifier is kilkanaście.

Ehm, are you really Polish?
"kilkunastu" means of course "somewhere in the teens". In other words: "a number between 11 and 19".
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: pirxowa w Lutego 12, 2006, 10:26:43 pm
"kilkunastu, kilkanaście": 10<x<20
"kilkudziesięciu, kilkadziesiąt": 19<x<100
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Metalist w Lutego 12, 2006, 11:13:46 pm
This is sort of besides the point, but I just thought it was interesting how some Polish words are very similar in their structure and definition to Russian
e.g. Baika in Russian is a bedtime story
and then there are words like
obwarować is to fortify (in Polish)
but in Russian

obvarovat' means - to rob (a house)
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: pirxowa w Lutego 13, 2006, 12:08:15 am
Cytuj
obwarować is to fortify (in Polish)
but in Russian

obvarovat' means - to rob (a house)


Doesn't it come from the gangster slang?

If so, there may be a link between "obwarować" and "obvarovat' " :
"warować" may mean "to watch, to guard", like a dog, for example. But "to watch" or even "to watch patiently" seems to be a better translation.

Now from the viewpoint of a robber,  his work must be preceded by a longer observation of a house to be robbed.  Which means patient watching but from the other side of walls, so to say.

This explanation may be reasonable. (Native Polish speakers, please compare with "obczaić").
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Deckard w Lutego 13, 2006, 10:18:44 am
Cytuj
Ehm, are you really Polish?
"kilkunastu" means of course "somewhere in the teens". In other words: "a number between 11 and 19".


You are absolutely right. I made a mistake.

CU
Deck
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Lutego 13, 2006, 11:37:44 pm
Cytuj
Polish words are very similar in their structure and definition to Russian
e.g. Baika in Russian is a bedtime story



Yes, there are many similarities and we have lots  of words common/similar-to with the Russians. Such as 'chodzic', 'ty', 'reka' and much, much more...

(Though I don't speak Russian, I like it alot, by the way...)
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Lutego 15, 2006, 03:44:30 am
I'm tired of translating "uczony" as "scholar". I wanted to use "scientist", but I saw that it has its own nauk- or nauc- word which I can't remember at the moment. "Researcher" sounds right from context, but I see there's "badacz" for that. "Uczony" is used consistently when talking about work in the sciences, but, to me, "scholar" suggests a person on the other side of CP Snow's cultural divide. (Perhaps a little like how "intellectual" as a noun more or less means "literary intellectual" today.) So, umm, would "researcher" be wrong?
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Lutego 15, 2006, 03:51:09 am
Well, 'researcher', in my opinion, wouldn't go right with 'uczony'. I'd rather say that 'uczony' says not much more than that the person knows a LOT. And that's basically it.
This world is nowadays almost out of use, but when it appears, it has this meaning.
In Lem's writings, however, it meant 'scientist'.
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Lutego 15, 2006, 06:15:38 am
Ah, it hadn't occurred to me to ask about idiosyncratic usage. Are there certain things that I should be looking out for in my Lem readings? (I did read somewhere that his Polish is supposed to be old-fashioned in general, but of course it all looks the same to me.)
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Miranda w Lutego 15, 2006, 09:25:05 am
I am interested in Lems Polish as well. What is it like? How can you discribe his style and the phrases he uses?
Is it complicated language or rather simple?

(Polish is a very beautiful language. I am studying it but am still far away from judging Lems language myself).
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: pirxowa w Lutego 15, 2006, 10:53:49 am
Cytuj
Well, 'researcher', in my opinion, wouldn't go right with 'uczony'. I'd rather say that 'uczony' says not much more than that the person knows a LOT. And that's basically it.
This world is nowadays almost out of use, but when it appears, it has this meaning.
In Lem's writings, however, it meant 'scientist'.



Native English speakers, please correct me if my intuitions are wrong:

1. Researcher ("badacz") is someone who carries out the research.
2. Scholar ("uczony"), as I understand this word, is someone who belongs to academia.
However, http://dictionary.reference.com/ says: Scholar: a learned person (especially in the humanities); someone who by long study has gained mastery in one or more disciplines.
3. Scientist ("naukowiec") is actually the same as researcher. A person who 'does science'. A profession.
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: pirxowa w Lutego 15, 2006, 11:01:56 am
Cytuj
I am interested in Lems Polish as well. What is it like? How can you discribe his style and the phrases he uses?
Is it complicated language or rather simple?

(Polish is a very beautiful language. I am studying it but am still far away from judging Lems language myself).


Lem's language and style is very diverse across different novels. I think that the best for you would be to read his letters to an  English translator, where Lem himself tries to explain what his language is like.
In: Stanisław Lem, "Listy albo opór materii", Wydawnictwo Literackie
http://www.wl.net.pl/ksiazka.php?ID=488
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Deckard w Lutego 16, 2006, 01:22:21 am
Just like pirxowa wrote Lem's Polish was different from book to book. Take for instance Golem XIV which is pretty complicated even for us down here in Poland. But after all the complexity of Golem's speach was intended to emphasize Golem's diversity from humans. Bomba megabitowa (which was not yet translated into English) is a bunch of esseys. Lem uses here a language of a philosopher. Many sentences are filled with uncommon words. Some of' em are taken from Latin. Other books like for example Astronauci or Głos Pana is rather a typical language used in novels. But at this point I gotta say that typical language is given in a great form, which means it's coherent, syntactic correct, and sometimes full of poetic inspiration.

CU
Deck
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Lutego 16, 2006, 03:54:15 am
Latin: Are there places where it is still routinely taught? I always have to skip over the expressions. Speaking of which, I saw that Ritch was recently considering  gathering them and coming up with translations (http://sedice.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=12925). Sounds like a good idea to me.
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: pirxowa w Lutego 16, 2006, 10:05:38 am
Cytuj
Latin: Are there places where it is still routinely taught?


Sure. Especially, in German-speaking countries there are a lot of highschools ("humanistische Gymnasien") , where ancient Greek and Latin are obligatory.  In Poland there are no distinguished schools of this kind but, instead, in all highschools a classical curriculum with obligatory Latin may be chosen.

Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: pirxowa w Lutego 16, 2006, 10:22:40 am
BTW. I'll tell you the easiest way to find out the meaning of latin sentences: www.google.com :-)
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Lutego 19, 2006, 10:27:40 am
What's doń? I figure it's probably the genitive plural of something, but I don't know what...
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: pirxowa w Lutego 19, 2006, 11:25:10 am
Cytuj
What's doń? I figure it's probably the genitive plural of something, but I don't know what...


"doń" is a shorter form of "do niego/do niej". It sounds a little bit archaic and poetic.
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Lutego 19, 2006, 09:07:01 pm
Ah...  Thanks as always...
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Miranda w Marca 07, 2006, 06:24:53 am
Which novels use "archaic and poetic" language, which do not? And what is complicated about Golem XIV in detail? The terminology, the structure of the sentences?
Are there passages or books you know where Lem uses very colloquial expressions or language?
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Marca 07, 2006, 12:06:53 pm
Well, the 'archaic & poetic' style, as you described it, appears in The Tales of the Robots (aka Mortal Engines + Cosmic Carnival). Also, partly, in Cyberiad.

As for Golem XIV, yes, the difficulties lie in the terminology. Mostly because he uses words that may be hard to understand for most people. Also, the logical structure of the language Golem uses may be hard to follow, as it is very complex.

As for colloquialisms, I don't recall to many examples.  
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Marca 18, 2006, 12:43:59 am
Where does the word bohater come from, that is, what is its etymology?

[BTW, Terminus, I just noticed that you mentioned Cosmic Carnival. That book was sort of a Lem 'sampler', short stories and chapters from here and there. I don't think it has anything that we don't have available in some other book.]
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: mia w Marca 27, 2006, 07:15:14 pm
[ "Czytajcie Lema, lepszego nie ma!". Huh?

Read Lem, Whos better, ehm?
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: pirxowa w Marca 29, 2006, 12:12:42 am
Cytuj
Where does the word bohater come from, that is, what is its etymology?

Very ancient and complicated...
http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=8392&pid=113511&st=45&#entry113511
(I hope you understand their explanations in Polish.)

However http://www.northvegr.org/lore/grimmst/015_01.php claims something a little bit different... (see Endnote 8 ).

Anyway, this word is much older than Polish language and comes from the times when we lived somewhere in Asia :-)
Tytuł: Re: about the Polish language
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Pekka w Marca 30, 2006, 08:02:21 pm
Cytuj
Latin: Are there places where it is still routinely taught? I always have to skip over the expressions. Speaking of which, I saw that Ritch was recently considering  gathering them and coming up with translations (http://sedice.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=12925). Sounds like a good idea to me.


I can proudly inform you that the Finnish broadcasting company is the only onw on Earth broadcasting news bulletins in Latin!

Pekka 8)