Autor Wątek: On Lem's religious background  (Przeczytany 24221 razy)

Kagan

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Re: On Lem's religious background
« Odpowiedź #15 dnia: Maj 11, 2006, 09:39:23 am »
No, Mr Metallurgist (;) It is nor as simple as you think.
Mr Lem was born in a rather well-off  (upper middle class) Polish-Jewish (Askhenazi or Khazar) family in Lwow. Lwow was then Polish, and was built by the Poles and Austrians, so it is the most eastern-located western (European) city. Lwow was later Soviet, German, again Soviet and now is, quite strangely, Ukrainian, thanks to Messrs Stalin, Hitler, Churchill nad Roosvelt. After the WW2 the best option for Lem was to declare himself a Pole. After all, he had before the War Polish citizenship, and one of languages he spoke fluently was Polish. Alternatives were either becoming a Soviet citizen (you will agree with me that it was not especially attractive) or migrate to an obscure kibutz in a desert somewhere in Palestine in order to fight Palestinian freedom fighters (again, not a very attractive proposal for a young thinking man). So Lem went with his family west in order to settle in the ancient Polish city of Cracow. Not a bad choice. ;)

Kagan

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Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
« Odpowiedź #16 dnia: Maj 11, 2006, 09:41:34 am »
Cytuj

Kagan seems to be applying a version of Nürnberg racial code here. He wants to keep the Polish blood pure.

 >:(


Really? So State of Israel is also applying the same Nürnberg racial code whilst assessing applications for Israeli citizenship?

Pekka

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Re: On Lem's religious background
« Odpowiedź #17 dnia: Maj 11, 2006, 09:43:43 am »
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After the WW2 the best option for Lem was to declare himself a Pole. After all, he had before the War Polish citizenship, and one of languages he spoke fluently was Polish.  ;)


Mr. Kagan, how much of racial purity do you expect before somebody has the privilege to call himself Polish?

8)

Metalist

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Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
« Odpowiedź #18 dnia: Maj 11, 2006, 09:43:51 am »
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Really? So State of Israel is also applying the same Nürnberg racial code whilst assessing applications for Israeli citizenship?


According to you bud.

Pekka

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Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
« Odpowiedź #19 dnia: Maj 11, 2006, 09:46:36 am »
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Really? So State of Israel is also applying the same Nürnberg racial code whilst assessing applications for Israeli citizenship?


As far as I know there are Israeli Arabs who are citizens, but have prileges, for example not have to do national service. I am no expert in this field, but aren´t jews and arabs in fact both semitic people?

8)

Kagan

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Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
« Odpowiedź #20 dnia: Maj 11, 2006, 09:49:21 am »
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Proof, please. 8)

Here it is:
"Reflections on my Life" published in collection "Microworlds" 1984 pp. 1-30. `Reflections on My Life' were orig. publ. as `Mein Leben' (`My Life') in Neue Rundschau No. 4 of Nov. 1983, in English as `Chance and Order' in The New Yorker of 30 Jan. 1984; repr. in D. Bryfonski (ed.) Contemporary Authors Autobiography Series (1984) & J. Kott (ed.) Four Decades of Polish Essays (1990). It was transl. from German by F. Rottensteiner.
Also:
Stanislaw Lem, 1921-
in Bryfonski, Dedria (ed.) & Whitman, Alden (author of foreword)
Contemporary Authors Autobiography Series Vol. 1
Detroit (Michigan, US): Gale Research Company & Book Tower, 1984 pp. 255-266; Translated from German by F. Rottensteiner.
Contains:
1. Lem's autobiography in which he describes his development as a writer and as a man, starting with his childhood in the 1930s and ending in the early 1980s.
2. Bibliography (by F. Rottensteiner).
Notes:
1. Orig. as `Mein Leben' (`My Life') in Neue Rundschau _ 4 of Nov. 1983.
2. First transl. to English as `Chance and Order' in The New Yorker of 30 Jan. 1984.
3. Also as `Reflections on My Life' in Microworlds (1984) & J. Kott (ed.) Four Decades of Polish Essays (1990).
I hope that I satisfied your curiosity. If you wish to get more information please write to me (ljkel2@netscape.net).

Kagan

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Re: On Lem's religious background
« Odpowiedź #21 dnia: Maj 11, 2006, 09:50:31 am »
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Mr. Kagan, how much of racial purity do you expect before somebody has the privilege to call himself Polish?

 8)

Try to apply for an Israeli citizenship, and you will understand the meaning of term "racial purity"...

Kagan

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Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
« Odpowiedź #22 dnia: Maj 11, 2006, 09:54:09 am »
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As far as I know there are Israeli Arabs who are citizens, but have prileges, for example not have to do national service. I am no expert in this field, but aren´t jews and arabs in fact both semitic people?

 8)


Yes, you are right. There are some Arabs who have Israeli citzizenship, but their numbers are very low, and they do not have to serve in Israeli army on security grounds. And yes, ancient Hebrews were indeed semitic people, but we are talking about Lem, who was a so called  Askhenazi Jew. Askhenazi Jews are of mostly Turkic (not exactly Turkish) or Khazar origin, so they frequently have no semitic features at all.

Kagan

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Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
« Odpowiedź #23 dnia: Maj 11, 2006, 09:55:31 am »
Cytuj

According to you bud.


OK. Tell me who can get Israeli citizenship and who cannot, and on which grounds...

Metalist

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Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
« Odpowiedź #24 dnia: Maj 11, 2006, 09:56:20 am »
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As far as I know there are Israeli Arabs who are citizens, but have prileges, for example not have to do national service. I am no expert in this field, but aren´t jews and arabs in fact both semitic people?

 8)


There are indeed Arab Israelili citizens. Arab Muslims sometimes refer to the Jews as their cousins 8). This is based on several shared beliefs including the prophet Abraham. Here's a quick text from Wiki:

Ibrahim (Arabic: ابراهيم), also known as Abraham, is very important in Islam, both in his own right as Prophet and as the father of the Prophet Ismail (Ishmael), his firstborn son, who is considered the Father of the Arabs. Ibrahim is considered one of the first and most important prophets of Islam, and is commonly termed Khalil Ullah, Friend of God.

Islam regards many of the Old Testament "Patriarchs" as prophets of God, and hence as Muslims. Ibrahim is regarded as neither Jew nor Christian but a Hanif (follower of the right path).

Kagan

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Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
« Odpowiedź #25 dnia: Maj 11, 2006, 10:01:45 am »
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There are indeed Arab Israelili citizens. Arab Muslims sometimes refer to the Jews as their cousins 8). This is based on several shared beliefs including the prophet Abraham. Here's a quick text from Wiki:

Ibrahim (Arabic: ابراهيم), also known as Abraham, is very important in Islam, both in his own right as Prophet and as the father of the Prophet Ismail (Ishmael), his firstborn son, who is considered the Father of the Arabs. Ibrahim is considered one of the first and most important prophets of Islam, and is commonly termed Khalil Ullah, Friend of God.

Islam regards many of the Old Testament "Patriarchs" as prophets of God, and hence as Muslims. Ibrahim is regarded as neither Jew nor Christian but a Hanif (follower of the right path).


Yes, but only the ancient Hebrews were semitic. Lem, as I told you several times, was so-called Askhenazi Jew, i.e. descendant of the Khazars, a Turkic tribe that accepted Judaism as a state religion. The Khazar state was conquered by the Kiyevan Rus and later demolished by Dzynghis-Khan. In medieval times the Khazars, escaping totally destroyed Khazaria (today southern Ukraine and southern Russia) settled in Poland and Germany. For many years Hebrew script was officially used in Poland, for example on coins.

Metalist

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Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
« Odpowiedź #26 dnia: Maj 11, 2006, 10:09:02 am »
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OK. Tell me who can get Israeli citizenship and who cannot, and on which grounds...


As you said Kagan: "on security grounds". Infact, there's your whole answer. The reason why, to you,  Israel might seem to judge or ratial grounds is because a considerable number of the Arabs in the region are affillited with extremist groups. When background checks are performed on some of these people, they set off red flags.  And don't try to compare this to what the went on in Poland. There were no Jewish jihadists in Warsaw blowing themselves up in a coffee shop. The fact is that there are more Arabs associated with terrorism applying for passports in Israel then non-Arabs. However, they do not assume automatically that you are a terrorist if you are an Arab.

Metalist

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Re: On Lem's religious background
« Odpowiedź #27 dnia: Maj 11, 2006, 10:29:58 am »
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And yes, ancient Hebrews were indeed semitic people, but we are talking about Lem, who was a so called  Askhenazi Jew. Askhenazi Jews are of mostly Turkic (not exactly Turkish) or Khazar origin, so they frequently have no semitic features at all.


Well Kagan, I'm glad I ran into you on this board and you opened my eyes to the light! I am a so called Askhenazi Jew which, according to you, makes me a "fake" Jew. What has been determined by you as "semitic features" or the lack there of? Are you a pure Christian Pole or do you have some other blood that would ofcource invalidate your ethnic background? Do you have Polish Christian features? How many? Enough for ethnic validity?

Kagan

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Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
« Odpowiedź #28 dnia: Maj 11, 2006, 11:32:13 am »
Do not misquote me! I wrote that Israeli citizens of Arab origin do not serve compulsory in Israeli army on security grounds. To get a Israeli citizenship you must be a Jew. Tell us how Israel defines term "Jew". Who is a Jew, according to Israeli law, and who is not?

Cytuj

As you said Kagan: "on security grounds". Infact, there's your whole answer. The reason why, to you,  Israel might seem to judge or ratial grounds is because a considerable number of the Arabs in the region are affillited with extremist groups. When background checks are performed on some of these people, they set off red flags.  And don't try to compare this to what the went on in Poland. There were no Jewish jihadists in Warsaw blowing themselves up in a coffee shop. The fact is that there are more Arabs associated with terrorism applying for passports in Israel then non-Arabs. However, they do not assume automatically that you are a terrorist if you are an Arab.


Kagan

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Re: On Lem's religious background
« Odpowiedź #29 dnia: Maj 11, 2006, 11:45:26 am »
Cytuj

Well Kagan, I'm glad I ran into you on this board and you opened my eyes to the light! I am a so called Askhenazi Jew which, according to you, makes me a "fake" Jew. What has been determined by you as "semitic features" or the lack there of? Are you a pure Christian Pole or do you have some other blood that would ofcource invalidate your ethnic background? Do you have Polish Christian features? How many? Enough for ethnic validity?


All I wanted to say was that Askhenazi, being of mostly Turkic (but also Polish, Russian, German etc.) origin have no "God given" right to today's Palestine. The rest is your speculation. And FYI I am not a Christian and have a rather complicated ethnic background: partly Polish, partly German, partly Tatar, and, who knows, maybe even Jewish (most likely Askhenazi)... But I feel a Pole, and only this really matters. And I do not claim any ones' land...
« Ostatnia zmiana: Maj 11, 2006, 11:46:26 am wysłana przez Kagan »