Stanisław Lem - Forum

English => Forum in English => Wątek zaczęty przez: Unitarius w Marzec 31, 2006, 01:41:28 pm

Tytuł: On Lem's religious background
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Unitarius w Marzec 31, 2006, 01:41:28 pm
OK. We all know, because of reading Lem that he was a non believer of jewish ancestry.

But I found out a suprising info on:

http://www.adherents.com/people/pl/Stanislaw_Lem.html

and

http://www.celebatheists.com/mediawiki-1.5.7/index.php?title=Stanislaw_Lem

They state not only that Lem was Catholic, but that Leam was supposed to have been close friends with Karol Wojtyla.

I can´t believe none of this nonsense.

Do you know more worthy sources to correct this wrong info? Thank You!

Greetings from Mexico City
Tytuł: Re: On Lem's religious background
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Marzec 31, 2006, 03:50:42 pm
They do not state that Lem was a catholic, but that he was raised as a catholic. That's a difference. Lem later baceme an atheist/agnostic.

As for the frendship with Karol Wojtyla, I haven't heard anything about it.
Tytuł: Re: On Lem's religious background
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Pekka w Marzec 31, 2006, 10:08:49 pm
 And Washington Post writes:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/27/AR200603 2701571.html

During World War II, his secular Jewish family struggled to stay together and survive. The family forged identification papers to avoid internment in the Jewish ghetto.

I understan secular as "non-religious". Shouldn´t it read "converted" if the family was Catholic?

Pekka  :)
Tytuł: Re: On Lem's religious background
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Kagan w Maj 04, 2006, 04:32:32 pm
Cytuj
They do not state that Lem was a catholic, but that he was raised as a catholic. That's a difference. Lem later baceme an atheist/agnostic.

As for the frendship with Karol Wojtyla, I haven't heard anything about it.


My understanding is that:
1. Lem was raised as eiter non-religious person or only nominally Roman-Catholic. My parents were also non-religious, but in a pre-war Poland they were formally classified as "Roman Catholics" as they were neither Jewish, nor Protestant and also not Orthodox Christians, and officially there was no "Atheist" or "Agnostic" or "Non-religious" category.
2. I do not think if eiter Wojtyla would appreciate Lem's writings or vice versa. I can imagine a friendship between Lem and Cardinal Wyszynski, a  former Head of Catholic Church in Poland, as well as one of the gretest Polish statemen (The "Millenium Cardinal"), but not between Lem and Wojtyla... Wojtyla was a great showman and somehow clever politician, but not especially intellectual, you know...
Tytuł: Re: On Lem's religious background
Wiadomość wysłana przez: maziek w Maj 05, 2006, 10:49:47 pm
Cytuj
They state not only that Lem was Catholic, but that Leam was supposed to have been close friends with Karol Wojtyla
hi Mexico! ;D. Regardless of being (or not) catholic, he had a great and open mind, and had had friends among best polish scientists. The fact is, that Wojtyła (another open-mind) used to invite many of them (being bishop in Cracov) many times for the discussions about what is the nature of universe (i.e. the beginning), about biology (i.e. evolution) etc. It is very possible that Lem was one of his quests. I don' t think they ever talked about religion.  Because of his knowledge about science Wojtyła - being pope - said for the first time "sorry" for Galileo, Bruno, and admitted that Darwin theory of evolution is something more important than only theory - I think. Another fact is, that both of them (Wojtyla and Lem) started together at the same time (about 1946 or 47) cooperation with "Tygodnik Powszechny" - weekly catholic magazine which was something against comunism, so it would be strange, if they hadn't met together. So: I don't know, if they were friends, but it is for sure that they had many possibilities to meet, and if they used to discuss - no religion was the topic
Cytuj
I understan secular as "non-religious". Shouldn´t it read "converted" if the family was Catholic?
I think it is very difficult to understand, how it was. Let us think they were Judes, and just hadn't practised it since years or decades. For nazi the only important fact was, that they were Judes i.e. had Jevish ancestors - so they were to die. Let us think they were catolics since decades - but they had Jevish ancestors, so they were to die... Even nazi, if it turned out, that they had any Jewish ancestors, were to die. To get proper papers was the only way to survive. In those conditions one will declare he is an UFO - to stay alive...
Tytuł: Re: On Lem's religious background
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Kagan w Maj 06, 2006, 09:53:42 am
maziek: hi Mexico! ;D. Regardless of being (or not) catholic, he had a great and open mind, and had had friends among best polish (sic) scientists. The fact is, that Wojtyła (another open-mind) SIC used to invite many of them (being bishop in Cracov) many times for the discussions about what is the nature of universe (i.e. the beginning), about biology (i.e. evolution) etc. It is very possible that Lem was one of his quests. I don' t think they ever talked about religion.  Because of his knowledge SIC about science Wojtyła - being pope - said for the first time "sorry" for Galileo, Bruno, and admitted that Darwin theory of evolution is something more important than only theory - I think. Another fact is, that both of them (Wojtyla and Lem) started together at the same time (about 1946 or 47) cooperation with "Tygodnik Powszechny" - weekly catholic magazine which was something SIC against comunism, so it would be strange, if they hadn't met together. So: I don't know, if they were friends, but it is for sure that they had many possibilities to meet, and if they used to discuss - no religion was the topic
- How can you talk to a priest and avoid religion? Show me any records proving any meeting between Wojtyla and Lem!

I think it is very difficult to understand, how it was. Let us think they were Judes  SIC, and just hadn't practised it since years or decades. For nazi SIC the only important fact was, that they were Judes SIC i.e. had Jevish SIC ancestors - so they were to die. Let us think they were catolics SIC since decades - but they had Jevish SIC ancestors, so they were to die... Even nazi SIC, if it turned out, that they had any Jewish ancestors, were to die. To get proper papers was the only way to survive. In those conditions one will declare he is an UFO - to stay alive...
- Hitler aslo had a part-Jewish ancestry. It is well explained in John Toland's book. So Nazi law was designed such a way, that Fuehrer coukld not be officially declared as a Jew. Mother of Heydrich (Nazi ruler of occupied Bohemia and Moravia, that one assasinated by the Czech Resistance) was 100% Jewish, as  his mother was a Jewess named Sarah. So one day the Nazis changed a description on her grave from "Sarah Heydrich" to "S. Heydrich"... ;)
Tytuł: Re: On Lem's religious background
Wiadomość wysłana przez: maziek w Maj 06, 2006, 10:37:54 am
Cytuj
SIC SIC SIC SIC SIC SIC SIC SIC
If You quote me, You must NOT change my words. If You are not able to learn how to quote, don't quote me.
Tytuł: Re: On Lem's religious background
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Kagan w Maj 06, 2006, 10:42:49 am
Cytuj
If You quote me, You must NOT change my words. If You are not able to learn how to quote, don't quote me.


SIC has a special meaning in editing texts. It attracts readers' attention to obvious mistakes... I can quote you any way I wish. It is called democracy and personal freedom...
Tytuł: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: tataturek w Maj 07, 2006, 01:55:10 pm
I think that Lem was Khazar not an ethnic Jew. You know about Khazaria - Turkish tribes that accepted Judaism as state religion. Later migrated to todays Poland. See Arthur Koestler THE THIRTEENTH TRİBE.
Cytuj
OK. We all know, because of reading Lem that he was a non believer of jewish ancestry.

But I found out a suprising info on:

http://www.adherents.com/people/pl/Stanislaw_Lem.html

and

http://www.celebatheists.com/mediawiki-1.5.7/index.php?title=Stanislaw_Lem

They state not only that Lem was Catholic, but that Leam was supposed to have been close friends with Karol Wojtyla.

I can´t believe none of this nonsense.

Do you know more worthy sources to correct this wrong info? Thank You!

Greetings from Mexico City

Tytuł: Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Pekka w Maj 09, 2006, 11:18:29 pm
Cytuj
I think that Lem was Khazar not an ethnic Jew. You know about Khazaria - Turkish tribes that accepted Judaism as state religion. Later migrated to todays Poland. See Arthur Koestler THE THIRTEENTH TRİBE.


Koestler´s therories about the khazars being the predecessors of European jews are not generally accepted.

There are indeed wild theories...in Korea children are taught at school that Finns and Koreans are sister tribes, both from the Ural region, Finns went west and Koreans east ! this is not a joke!

So I suppose the facts we know are:

1. SL was unreligious.
2. Ethnically he has both Polish and Jewish ancestors.

Am I correct in saying that SL always presented himself as a Polish writer? If so, he himself found himself to be Polish and probably it is correct to present him as a Polish author ?

Pekka 8)
Tytuł: Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Metalist w Maj 10, 2006, 04:52:55 am
Cytuj

Koestler´s therories about the khazars being the predecessors of European jews are not generally accepted.

There are indeed wild theories...in Korea children are taught at school that Finns and Koreans are sister tribes, both from the Ural region, Finns went west and Koreans east ! this is not a joke!

So I suppose the facts we know are:

1. SL was unreligious.
2. Ethnically he has both Polish and Jewish ancestors.

Am I correct in saying that SL always presented himself as a Polish writer? If so, he himself found himself to be Polish and probably it is correct to present him as a Polish author ?

Pekka 8)

Lem was always known as a Polish Science fiction writer and philosopher. He never really put any epathis on his religious background, since he was openly athiest. I think that presenting him as a Polish writer is correct. That's how I always referred to him :)
Tytuł: Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Kagan w Maj 10, 2006, 10:14:18 am
Problem with Lem was that he was an opportunist. Quite cleverly he found that it was not a good idea to be Jew in Nazi-ocupied Poland, so he made himself a Pole. But for American market he stressed his Jewish (Really Askhenazi or Khazar) roots, and regreted that he "knew so liittle about Jewish culture". When communists were in power in Poland, he was their "fellow travelle", until he found that communism was doomed. But he abandoned communism rougly when many other people found that it was doomed. I have much lower intelligence than Lem, and arrived to the same conlusion independently and rougly the same time as Lem... So let me conclude that Lem was a writer of Jewish origin, writing mostly in Polish (but also in German), enthusiastic follower of communism during Stalinism years in Poland, later critic of communism, but only when it was obvious that such a system was doomed. And note that I use "communism" in very narrow meaning ("political system of USSR and its satellites").

Cytuj
Lem was always known as a Polish Science fiction writer and philosopher. He never really put any epathis on his religious background, since he was openly athiest. I think that presenting him as a Polish writer is correct. That's how I always referred to him :)

Tytuł: Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Metalist w Maj 11, 2006, 08:33:00 am
Cytuj
Problem with Lem was that he was an opportunist. Quite cleverly he found that it was not a good idea to be Jew in Nazi-ocupied Poland, so he made himself a Pole.


So was he from another country other then Poland before he "made himself a Pole"?  :o
Tytuł: Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Pekka w Maj 11, 2006, 09:30:51 am
Cytuj

So was he from another country other then Poland before he "made himself a Pole"?  :o


Kagan seems to be applying a version of Nürnberg racial code here. He wants to keep the Polish blood pure.

>:(
Tytuł: Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Pekka w Maj 11, 2006, 09:32:32 am
Cytuj
But for American market he stressed his Jewish (Really Askhenazi or Khazar) roots, and regreted that he "knew so liittle about Jewish culture".



Proof, please. 8)
Tytuł: Re: On Lem's religious background
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Kagan w Maj 11, 2006, 09:39:23 am
No, Mr Metallurgist (;) It is nor as simple as you think.
Mr Lem was born in a rather well-off  (upper middle class) Polish-Jewish (Askhenazi or Khazar) family in Lwow. Lwow was then Polish, and was built by the Poles and Austrians, so it is the most eastern-located western (European) city. Lwow was later Soviet, German, again Soviet and now is, quite strangely, Ukrainian, thanks to Messrs Stalin, Hitler, Churchill nad Roosvelt. After the WW2 the best option for Lem was to declare himself a Pole. After all, he had before the War Polish citizenship, and one of languages he spoke fluently was Polish. Alternatives were either becoming a Soviet citizen (you will agree with me that it was not especially attractive) or migrate to an obscure kibutz in a desert somewhere in Palestine in order to fight Palestinian freedom fighters (again, not a very attractive proposal for a young thinking man). So Lem went with his family west in order to settle in the ancient Polish city of Cracow. Not a bad choice. ;)
Tytuł: Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Kagan w Maj 11, 2006, 09:41:34 am
Cytuj

Kagan seems to be applying a version of Nürnberg racial code here. He wants to keep the Polish blood pure.

 >:(


Really? So State of Israel is also applying the same Nürnberg racial code whilst assessing applications for Israeli citizenship?
Tytuł: Re: On Lem's religious background
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Pekka w Maj 11, 2006, 09:43:43 am
Cytuj
After the WW2 the best option for Lem was to declare himself a Pole. After all, he had before the War Polish citizenship, and one of languages he spoke fluently was Polish.  ;)


Mr. Kagan, how much of racial purity do you expect before somebody has the privilege to call himself Polish?

8)
Tytuł: Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Metalist w Maj 11, 2006, 09:43:51 am
Cytuj

Really? So State of Israel is also applying the same Nürnberg racial code whilst assessing applications for Israeli citizenship?


According to you bud.
Tytuł: Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Pekka w Maj 11, 2006, 09:46:36 am
Cytuj

Really? So State of Israel is also applying the same Nürnberg racial code whilst assessing applications for Israeli citizenship?


As far as I know there are Israeli Arabs who are citizens, but have prileges, for example not have to do national service. I am no expert in this field, but aren´t jews and arabs in fact both semitic people?

8)
Tytuł: Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Kagan w Maj 11, 2006, 09:49:21 am
Cytuj
Proof, please. 8)

Here it is:
"Reflections on my Life" published in collection "Microworlds" 1984 pp. 1-30. `Reflections on My Life' were orig. publ. as `Mein Leben' (`My Life') in Neue Rundschau No. 4 of Nov. 1983, in English as `Chance and Order' in The New Yorker of 30 Jan. 1984; repr. in D. Bryfonski (ed.) Contemporary Authors Autobiography Series (1984) & J. Kott (ed.) Four Decades of Polish Essays (1990). It was transl. from German by F. Rottensteiner.
Also:
Stanislaw Lem, 1921-
in Bryfonski, Dedria (ed.) & Whitman, Alden (author of foreword)
Contemporary Authors Autobiography Series Vol. 1
Detroit (Michigan, US): Gale Research Company & Book Tower, 1984 pp. 255-266; Translated from German by F. Rottensteiner.
Contains:
1. Lem's autobiography in which he describes his development as a writer and as a man, starting with his childhood in the 1930s and ending in the early 1980s.
2. Bibliography (by F. Rottensteiner).
Notes:
1. Orig. as `Mein Leben' (`My Life') in Neue Rundschau _ 4 of Nov. 1983.
2. First transl. to English as `Chance and Order' in The New Yorker of 30 Jan. 1984.
3. Also as `Reflections on My Life' in Microworlds (1984) & J. Kott (ed.) Four Decades of Polish Essays (1990).
I hope that I satisfied your curiosity. If you wish to get more information please write to me (ljkel2@netscape.net).
Tytuł: Re: On Lem's religious background
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Kagan w Maj 11, 2006, 09:50:31 am
Cytuj

Mr. Kagan, how much of racial purity do you expect before somebody has the privilege to call himself Polish?

 8)

Try to apply for an Israeli citizenship, and you will understand the meaning of term "racial purity"...
Tytuł: Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Kagan w Maj 11, 2006, 09:54:09 am
Cytuj

As far as I know there are Israeli Arabs who are citizens, but have prileges, for example not have to do national service. I am no expert in this field, but aren´t jews and arabs in fact both semitic people?

 8)


Yes, you are right. There are some Arabs who have Israeli citzizenship, but their numbers are very low, and they do not have to serve in Israeli army on security grounds. And yes, ancient Hebrews were indeed semitic people, but we are talking about Lem, who was a so called  Askhenazi Jew. Askhenazi Jews are of mostly Turkic (not exactly Turkish) or Khazar origin, so they frequently have no semitic features at all.
Tytuł: Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Kagan w Maj 11, 2006, 09:55:31 am
Cytuj

According to you bud.


OK. Tell me who can get Israeli citizenship and who cannot, and on which grounds...
Tytuł: Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Metalist w Maj 11, 2006, 09:56:20 am
Cytuj

As far as I know there are Israeli Arabs who are citizens, but have prileges, for example not have to do national service. I am no expert in this field, but aren´t jews and arabs in fact both semitic people?

 8)


There are indeed Arab Israelili citizens. Arab Muslims sometimes refer to the Jews as their cousins 8). This is based on several shared beliefs including the prophet Abraham. Here's a quick text from Wiki:

Ibrahim (Arabic: ابراهيم), also known as Abraham, is very important in Islam, both in his own right as Prophet and as the father of the Prophet Ismail (Ishmael), his firstborn son, who is considered the Father of the Arabs. Ibrahim is considered one of the first and most important prophets of Islam, and is commonly termed Khalil Ullah, Friend of God.

Islam regards many of the Old Testament "Patriarchs" as prophets of God, and hence as Muslims. Ibrahim is regarded as neither Jew nor Christian but a Hanif (follower of the right path).
Tytuł: Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Kagan w Maj 11, 2006, 10:01:45 am
Cytuj

There are indeed Arab Israelili citizens. Arab Muslims sometimes refer to the Jews as their cousins 8). This is based on several shared beliefs including the prophet Abraham. Here's a quick text from Wiki:

Ibrahim (Arabic: ابراهيم), also known as Abraham, is very important in Islam, both in his own right as Prophet and as the father of the Prophet Ismail (Ishmael), his firstborn son, who is considered the Father of the Arabs. Ibrahim is considered one of the first and most important prophets of Islam, and is commonly termed Khalil Ullah, Friend of God.

Islam regards many of the Old Testament "Patriarchs" as prophets of God, and hence as Muslims. Ibrahim is regarded as neither Jew nor Christian but a Hanif (follower of the right path).


Yes, but only the ancient Hebrews were semitic. Lem, as I told you several times, was so-called Askhenazi Jew, i.e. descendant of the Khazars, a Turkic tribe that accepted Judaism as a state religion. The Khazar state was conquered by the Kiyevan Rus and later demolished by Dzynghis-Khan. In medieval times the Khazars, escaping totally destroyed Khazaria (today southern Ukraine and southern Russia) settled in Poland and Germany. For many years Hebrew script was officially used in Poland, for example on coins.
Tytuł: Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Metalist w Maj 11, 2006, 10:09:02 am
Cytuj

OK. Tell me who can get Israeli citizenship and who cannot, and on which grounds...


As you said Kagan: "on security grounds". Infact, there's your whole answer. The reason why, to you,  Israel might seem to judge or ratial grounds is because a considerable number of the Arabs in the region are affillited with extremist groups. When background checks are performed on some of these people, they set off red flags.  And don't try to compare this to what the went on in Poland. There were no Jewish jihadists in Warsaw blowing themselves up in a coffee shop. The fact is that there are more Arabs associated with terrorism applying for passports in Israel then non-Arabs. However, they do not assume automatically that you are a terrorist if you are an Arab.
Tytuł: Re: On Lem's religious background
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Metalist w Maj 11, 2006, 10:29:58 am
Cytuj
And yes, ancient Hebrews were indeed semitic people, but we are talking about Lem, who was a so called  Askhenazi Jew. Askhenazi Jews are of mostly Turkic (not exactly Turkish) or Khazar origin, so they frequently have no semitic features at all.


Well Kagan, I'm glad I ran into you on this board and you opened my eyes to the light! I am a so called Askhenazi Jew which, according to you, makes me a "fake" Jew. What has been determined by you as "semitic features" or the lack there of? Are you a pure Christian Pole or do you have some other blood that would ofcource invalidate your ethnic background? Do you have Polish Christian features? How many? Enough for ethnic validity?
Tytuł: Re: Lem was Khazar not Jew!
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Kagan w Maj 11, 2006, 11:32:13 am
Do not misquote me! I wrote that Israeli citizens of Arab origin do not serve compulsory in Israeli army on security grounds. To get a Israeli citizenship you must be a Jew. Tell us how Israel defines term "Jew". Who is a Jew, according to Israeli law, and who is not?

Cytuj

As you said Kagan: "on security grounds". Infact, there's your whole answer. The reason why, to you,  Israel might seem to judge or ratial grounds is because a considerable number of the Arabs in the region are affillited with extremist groups. When background checks are performed on some of these people, they set off red flags.  And don't try to compare this to what the went on in Poland. There were no Jewish jihadists in Warsaw blowing themselves up in a coffee shop. The fact is that there are more Arabs associated with terrorism applying for passports in Israel then non-Arabs. However, they do not assume automatically that you are a terrorist if you are an Arab.

Tytuł: Re: On Lem's religious background
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Kagan w Maj 11, 2006, 11:45:26 am
Cytuj

Well Kagan, I'm glad I ran into you on this board and you opened my eyes to the light! I am a so called Askhenazi Jew which, according to you, makes me a "fake" Jew. What has been determined by you as "semitic features" or the lack there of? Are you a pure Christian Pole or do you have some other blood that would ofcource invalidate your ethnic background? Do you have Polish Christian features? How many? Enough for ethnic validity?


All I wanted to say was that Askhenazi, being of mostly Turkic (but also Polish, Russian, German etc.) origin have no "God given" right to today's Palestine. The rest is your speculation. And FYI I am not a Christian and have a rather complicated ethnic background: partly Polish, partly German, partly Tatar, and, who knows, maybe even Jewish (most likely Askhenazi)... But I feel a Pole, and only this really matters. And I do not claim any ones' land...
Tytuł: Re: On Lem's religious background
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Kagan w Maj 12, 2006, 08:52:54 am
If Koestler was not right, then tell me why he and his wife were assasinated in their London flat by the Israeli Secret Service (Mosad, Shin Bet or who know wich Israeli secret agency) shortly after publishing THE 13TH TRIBE?

Cytuj

Wikipedia states:  There they likely merged with local Jews and ensuing waves of Jewish immigration from Germany and Western Europe. They most likely did not constitute the dominant group within Eastern European Jewry, as Arthur Koestler maintained (see below). Polish legends speak of Jews being present in Poland before the establishment of the Polish monarchy. Polish coins from the 12th and 13th centuries sometimes bore Slavic inscriptions written in the Hebrew alphabet [3] [4] though connecting these coins to Khazar influence is purely a matter of speculation.

and about Koestlers theories:

Khazar ancestry of Ashkenazim
Arthur Koestler
Enlarge
Arthur Koestler

Some historians, and most famously the non-historian novelist Arthur Koestler (in The Thirteenth Tribe), have proposed that Jewish Khazars are the ancestors of most or all Ashkenazi (Eastern European) Jews, but the idea is controversial and is not supported by mainstream researchers. Recent genetic studies appear to demonstrate that Middle Eastern elements dominate the Ashkenazi male line (see, e.g., Y-chromosomal Aaron), but that the female line appears to have a substantially different history. Some have argued this suggests Middle Eastern men marrying into local European communities [5]meaning that Ashkenazim are either not related to Jewish Khazars or that Jewish Khazars represent only a small element of Ashkenazi ancestry rather than the dominant element suggested by Koestler. The theory for the most part is considered to have been widely discredited. Some historians and scientists recognize the need to specifically test the Khazar theory, rather than generalizing based on studies of other non-Khazar populations.[6]

Another criticism that has been levelled against Koestler's work is that he largely appropriated his history from such sources as D.M. Dunlop, sometimes without proper attribution. Moreover, it has been pointed out that his more speculative second half (discussing his theories about Ashkenazi descent) is largely unsupported; to the extent that Koestler referred to place-names and documentary evidence his analysis has been described as a mixture of flawed etymologies and misinterpreted primary sources.

Other critics of the Khazar-Ashkenazi theory have stated that the prime motive for even the small degree of acceptance of these ideas is because they have become political and anti-Zionist in nature. The Khazar theory has been adopted by many anti-Zionists, especially in the Arab world; such proponents of the theory argue that if Ashkenazi Jews are primarily Khazar in origin, then they would be outside the scope of God's promise of Canaan to Israelites as recorded in the Bible. This ignores, of course, the fact that the Biblical promise explicitly includes converts, and the fact that over half of Israeli Jews are not Ashkenazi. Some have countered that such charges of a political motive are not relevant to the core of the argument; in any event, Koestler himself was emphatically pro-Zionist based upon secular considerations.

The Khazar claim has also served as a catalyst for state antisemitism in the Soviet Union and a justification for conquest by Russian nationalists. [7]

Others have claimed Khazar origins for such groups as the Karaim, Krymchaks, Mountain Jews, and Gruzim. There is little evidence to support any of these theories, although it is possible that some Khazar descendants found their way into these communities. Non-Jewish groups who claim at least partial descent from the Khazars include the Kumyks and Crimean Tatars; as with the above-mentioned Jewish groups, these claims are subject to a great deal of controversy and debate.

 8)

Tytuł: Re: On Lem's religious background
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Kagan w Maj 12, 2006, 08:55:04 am
Nice joke, but Gierek was a communist, not socialist...

Cytuj
No, many people will be happy and You too ;D

There's an old joke. Brezniew (everybody knows), Ford (US president) and Gierek (Polish first secretary of socialistic party) are in the plane over US. Ford takes 10 bucks and throws them out of th plane - 10 people will be happy. Than, the plane is over USSR, Brezniew takes 100 rubles, throws them and says: a hundred people will be happy! At last plane is over Poland, but poor Gierek hasn't got a damn zloty (polish money). So only whispers: "I throw out you both, and few billion people will be happy!"

Tytuł: Re: On Lem's religious background
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Kagan w Maj 12, 2006, 08:56:21 am
Cytuj
And if you have to throw any past US presidents out of a plane around that time in history, you should pick Carter.  8)


Carter? The only honest US president since Lincoln? My favourite is obviously Dubya...
Tytuł: Re: On Lem's religious background
Wiadomość wysłana przez: wetal w Maj 13, 2006, 11:56:44 am
Read Star Diaries where Tchiy talks with a priest who sticked a half of his star map with paper where the civilizations developed and religion disappeared.
 Know that strong people do not believe in god they believe in themselves,and in other people and their wit.
 Lem despised the religion,he realized that it is a step back.
 Catholic church is such an organization which used to burn all the unfitting people.The same could be said about former communist`s party .
Tytuł: Re: On Lem's religious background
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Kagan w Maj 13, 2006, 12:44:52 pm
Of course. But do you know that English language translation of this journey was censored in the West? Probably by the religious censors...
It was the Twenty-second Voyage (1954) in which Tichy learns from the Andrygonian pupils that life on Earth is impossible and  later meets father Lacymon who tells him about various problems encountered by the Christian (Roman-Catholic) missionaries on the alien worlds. Few last pages of "The Twenty-second Voyage" have been omitted in the English translation, most likely because of their controversial, anti-clerical and anti-American subject, which could offend some American readers (for example those in the so-called `Bible Belt' in the Southern USA, where Darwin's theory of evolution is still fiercely fought by the creationists). See also Liro's Stanislaw Lem in Translation in The Polish Review vol. XXXVII No. 1 of 1992 pp. 63-65.
And remeber, that the Prostestant Church was not better. Kalvin made Geneva a real hell. And remember witch hunts in the US. There was a quite good movie on this subject...
Cheers! :)
Kagan, King of Khazars ;)
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Read Star Diaries where Tchiy talks with a priest who sticked a half of his star map with paper where the civilizations developed and religion disappeared.
  Know that strong people do not believe in god they believe in themselves,and in other people and their wit.
  Lem despised the religion,he realized that it is a step back.
  Catholic church is such an organization which used to burn all the unfitting people.The same could be said about former communist`s party .

Tytuł: Re: On Lem's religious background
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Pekka w Maj 13, 2006, 10:05:25 pm
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If Koestler was not right, then tell me why he and his wife were assasinated in their London flat by the Israeli Secret Service (Mosad, Shin Bet or who know wich Israeli secret agency) shortly after publishing THE 13TH TRIBE?




I know that questions were raised because his wife also committed suicide, but was not ill.
But what would be the logic behind such an act? Revenge?

???
Tytuł: Re: On Lem's religious background
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Kagan w Maj 14, 2006, 01:05:36 pm
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I know that questions were raised because his wife also committed suicide, but was not ill.
But what would be the logic behind such an act? Revenge?

 ???


Human beings are not logical or rational creatures. Only robots are logical and rational... As in In the "Eleventh Voyage" (1961) where Tichy was sent to investigate events on a planet supposed to be inhabited by rebellious and hostile to the mankind robots, to eventually find "that only man can be a bastard";
And secret services are very good in making a murder look like a suicide... Remeber that latest case of a British scientist?
Tytuł: Re: On Lem's religious background
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Pekka w Maj 14, 2006, 03:14:15 pm
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Human beings are not logical or rational creatures. Only robots are logical and rational... As in In the "Eleventh Voyage" (1961) where Tichy was sent to investigate events on a planet supposed to be inhabited by rebellious and hostile to the mankind robots, to eventually find "that only man can be a bastard";
And secret services are very good in making a murder look like a suicide... Remeber that latest case of a British scientist?


I agree. Freude said that " man is not the master in his own house" meaning exactly this. I still belive a sectret service would assassin somebody only for a rational reason. Tell me about the British scientist, fi we both a till around
;D
Tytuł: Re: On Lem's religious background
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Kagan w Maj 15, 2006, 12:23:40 pm
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I agree. Freude said that " man is not the master in his own house" meaning exactly this. I still belive a sectret service would assassin somebody only for a rational reason. Tell me about the British scientist, fi we both a till around
 ;D


I don't have time to search for this, but it was a British scientist involved in those big lies of Tony Blair regarding nuclear weapons in Iraq. The poor scientist was killed by MI5, 6 or other digit, and the killing (murder) was arranged as a suicide. Similar case as with Lady Di, who was prevented by the same MIn from having a muslim child...