Stanisław Lem - Forum

English => Forum in English => Wątek zaczęty przez: Joan Alòs w Września 09, 2005, 12:59:16 pm

Tytuł: Women in Lem novels
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Joan Alòs w Września 09, 2005, 12:59:16 pm
I'd like to know why are so few women (if any) in Stanislaw Lem novels.
Tytuł: Re: Women in Lem novels
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Września 09, 2005, 01:40:13 pm
Hah, ask Lem ::) We've already discussed it; but I don't remember any constructive conclussions.

I personally think that this may be caused by the fact that the majority of Lem's characters are proffesional scientists (take Eden) or pilots and navigators, adventurers (Pirx, Star Diaries) and this sort of lifestyle is still associated with being a male ::)

Or at least it was at the time Lem wrote all this.

On the other hand, one must admit, that it may be hard for a male writer to give a good description of a female character; but I don't think this is Lem's problem. I'd rather suspect that, simply, he wasn't interested in complicating the human-human relations in his novels.  And this complication always appears when women are introduced - take this as a compliment - males are just so simple-minded ;). Maybe this simplicity (in between humans) was more suitable for Lem.
Tytuł: Re: Women in Lem novels
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Deckert w Września 09, 2005, 06:57:04 pm
Cytuj
Hah, ask Lem ::) We've already discussed it; but I don't remember any constructive conclussions.


Coz there were no constructive conslussions... :-) only presumtions.

But I really like the idea you gave above. Indeed, introducing female characters into a story makes the story even more complicated - and I'd say - multithreaded ;-)

CU
Deck
Tytuł: Re: Women in Lem novels
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Września 09, 2005, 07:22:13 pm
Yeea... and men just aren't hyperthreading processors... ehm...

...got some problems even with half-duplex, as a matter of fact...

::)

Tytuł: Re: Women in Lem novels
Wiadomość wysłana przez: afebk w Września 12, 2005, 03:47:18 am
I rarely find the masculinity of Lem's characters to be an obstacle to identifying with the story.  They are most often involved in problems of universal aspect, anyway.  I can say he's never raised my feminist hackles.
Tytuł: Re: Women in Lem novels
Wiadomość wysłana przez: innate w Września 12, 2005, 07:24:43 pm
That's true. I think I read in one of his interviews something about literature focusing on individuals and small things having been rendered meaningless by the enormity of the World War.
On the other hand, I've seen the claim that Fiasco has a misogynist rant in it that was not included in the English translation. I don't know; just what I've heard...I'm not exactly sure how the topic would come up in something like Fiasco, anyway.
Tytuł: Re: Women in Lem novels
Wiadomość wysłana przez: awariat w Września 14, 2005, 08:13:06 pm
Why are there so few women in movies and books in general? Why are they typically good looking and are  sex objects for the main hero :)?.  I don't think this is just a Lem problem. In my oppinion men are just more interesting from a mans point of view, so the books wouldn't be so good if he introduced more women.
Tytuł: Re: Women in Lem novels
Wiadomość wysłana przez: nqd w Września 16, 2005, 02:38:21 pm
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Why are there so few women in movies and books in general? Why are they typically good looking and are  sex objects for the main hero :)?.  I don't think this is just a Lem problem. In my oppinion men are just more interesting from a mans point of view, so the books wouldn't be so good if he introduced more women.

I'll only repeat what somebody said earlier. Men takes women in very different way, it's always complication and IMHO from the men point of view, relationship between man and woman is always more difficult than between two men. And if author (male author) does not want a complication he replaces woman character with man character.
Tytuł: Re: Women in Lem novels
Wiadomość wysłana przez: wetal w Września 17, 2005, 01:30:33 pm
Oh gosh there`s not a single constructive view. Did you take into account when Lem`s novels were written? I the time when thre were very popular cheap pulp-fiction novels about sexy space girls and male knights who fought against some misters evils whose mission was the simplest, to destroy the planet of a notorious girl who of course undressed makes hero to save her planet and to slay the antihero violently.
  Did you read Harry Harrison whose characters drank "space whisky" that is best brewed on mars or venus,the women in his novels can be loving mothers and in the same time professional killers, know karate , aikido, thiekwondo,makrame,arigami,karaoke -all that is really sexy.
 Did you want Lem to be the second Harrison ?
Tytuł: Re: Women in Lem novels
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Września 17, 2005, 03:54:40 pm
O wow, and You're so constructive. Praise God.
Tytuł: Re: Women in Lem novels
Wiadomość wysłana przez: yourheroisyourself w Września 20, 2005, 11:40:29 am
I often think about this issue with other books or authors, but I never thought about that with Lem. So I think it's rather neutral to me.

I never found anything misogynistic in his books. If there is I really would like to know ;)
Tytuł: Re: Women in Lem novels
Wiadomość wysłana przez: wetal w Września 22, 2005, 02:52:21 pm
Yes Terminus, yes very constructive. All I ment is that Mr.Lem is rather a philosopher than a romantic novel writer.
 Need romantics? Read  Maupassant.
Tytuł: Re: Women in Lem novels
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Września 22, 2005, 05:44:49 pm
Oh, and now You're even funny! How cute!

I dont' give a damn about romantic novels, nor try to persuade that Lem writes them. I gave a comprehensive explanation of why Lem's books are so free-from-women, in the first post; and I find it very amusing that You seem to think that only You are constructive here.

But go on, it's cool.

Tytuł: Re: Women in Lem novels
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Socrates w Września 23, 2005, 06:30:09 pm
Gee, I always thought introducing female characters into books made books that much simpler...It's quite obvious what the feelings of men for women will become; the women will either accept the advances or not, and finally everyone will live happily ever after (or one or both will die in either a built-up heroic scene or in some pathetic little accident).   If you only deal with male or female characters (or primarily, at least), you cannot help but develop the characters to the fullest in an effort to keep the readers stimulated and thinking.  You will not have the safety of a retreat into a patterned man-woman relationship if you run out of ideas.  Vide Lem's Pirx stories, Of Mice and Men, or Madame Bovary.
Cheers, Socrates
Tytuł: Re: Women in Lem novels
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Września 23, 2005, 06:37:16 pm
Quite right.  So, infact, it even complicates the matter.

Good point.
Tytuł: Re: Women in Lem novels
Wiadomość wysłana przez: wetal w Października 04, 2005, 03:58:20 pm
Ah , well,there appeared some misconception. It must be through different mentality. In my understanding the women are made for LOVE and if the male writer introduces female character to his creation.In most cases [not in all] it is made for romantic issues.
  Do you remember Zigmund Freud ?It might have been the thing he called ''sublimation''.And someone`s constructivity is not the point of the discussion.
 
Tytuł: Re: Women in Lem novels
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Deckert w Października 04, 2005, 04:20:27 pm
ohh.... women...


CU
Deck
Tytuł: Re: Women in Lem novels
Wiadomość wysłana przez: wetal w Października 10, 2005, 03:33:50 pm
Aaah! You don`t say.
Tytuł: Re: Women in Lem novels
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Miri w Grudnia 02, 2005, 02:30:33 pm
Women are rare with Lem, alright. Think of Harey. Beautiful and young, but no scientist, no profession, nothing to add to the story told but her looks and her purity. Well, Lem (genius that he is) in this respect is simply a child of his time.
Tytuł: Re: Women in Lem novels
Wiadomość wysłana przez: def w Grudnia 08, 2005, 01:18:13 am
Although if he did have women he could add a fair bit more descriptive writing about a relationship to his novel
Tytuł: Re: Women in Lem novels
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Terminus w Grudnia 08, 2005, 01:37:20 am
Yup, and that's why he didn't have them there.
His characters wasn'r really much into relationships...
Tytuł: Re: Women in Lem novels
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Miranda w Grudnia 08, 2005, 12:43:55 pm
Terminus is right. Think of all those irrelevant love details spoiling the whole story told. Who wants to know about the little fears and joys of women and men interacting when universe is at stake? The same about his male protagonists. Imagine them not solving (or trying to) the riddles of an unknown world, but instead being jealous or telling each other their childhood events just to get to know each other.
Relationsships of any (human/oid) kind would spoil sophisticated hypothesis as one can find them in Lems work.
Tytuł: Re: Women in Lem novels
Wiadomość wysłana przez: daffodil2006 w Marca 29, 2006, 07:16:35 pm
Yes, it's really interesting, why Lem devoted so little time to women in his work. Maybe he doesn't think that women are simply minded or less important in society. I have never thought about it before I found this topic.

In my opinion Lem doesn't need female heroines to express his ideas and threads of thinking. And you hardly ever find any romantic in his works. The most vivid personality I remember from his works is the dead wive in Solaris.
Tytuł: Re: Women in Lem novels
Wiadomość wysłana przez: daffodil2006 w Marca 29, 2006, 07:20:14 pm
Miranda, I'm sorry to say but I don't agree that Romantics can spoil sci-fi. Perhaps, you haven't read some stories of Garry Garrison, Robert Sheckly and Clifford Simak. I really enjoy them.
Tytuł: Re: Women in Lem novels
Wiadomość wysłana przez: tomsak w Marca 30, 2006, 10:23:34 am
OK, women characters are rare in his work, but look at Harey (engl. Rhea) - she 's the most human in Solaris, and the only side willing and capable of making the Contact. That's one of main layers in that novel. (Although we could argue 1. is she a human or "ocean", 2. how she's actually only simulation of original Harey intermediated through Kevin's memory / perception of her / subconsciousness. - But even if that's true, she becomes new, independent person, female person, and she's doing the step which nor Kevin nor Snaut are capable of doing. Kevin's final statement of staying there in "time of cruel miracles" is only late understanding of what she was trying to do or say.)
Tytuł: Re: Women in Lem novels
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Mieslaw w Marca 30, 2006, 04:46:59 pm
Hello, this is my first post in English section.

In polish section we have discussion about a book "Obłok Magellana" (I think that it wasn't translated into English). It was written in 1955. A critic wrote that women in this book are mysterious and weird.
Well, the same critic wrote also that women-men relations are shown in "very bourgeois way"  :-/.
But we can't say that that women don't occur in this book, there is quite much about ralationship between main character and a woman.
Tytuł: Re: Women in Lem novels
Wiadomość wysłana przez: Pekka w Marca 30, 2006, 07:22:59 pm
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OK, women characters are rare in his work, but look at Harey (engl. Rhea) - she 's the most human in Solaris, and the only side willing and capable of making the Contact. That's one of main layers in that novel. (Although we could argue 1. is she a human or "ocean", 2. how she's actually only simulation of original Harey intermediated through Kevin's memory / perception of her / subconsciousness. - But even if that's true, she becomes new, independent person, female person, and she's doing the step which nor Kevin nor Snaut are capable of doing. Kevin's final statement of staying there in "time of cruel miracles" is only late understanding of what she was trying to do or say.)


I fully agree. Lem´s novels are philosophical in character so you don´t need heroes, but if there is a heroine abroad Solaris, it is Harey...her situation is even more untolerable than Kelvin´s and indeed she is the only character to make the final heroic act by letting herself to be annihilated. There is no chauvinism in Lem´s works, the men are indeed no masculine heroes, but people trying to make sense of the world. And if you read Return from the stars I cannot think there is any under-valuing of women.

Cheers, Pekka